Why No Denomination Will Survive the Homosexuality Crisis

Christian Post Opinion ^ | July 16 2012 | Kevin De Young

[scottjewell]

There is no way, short of a miraculous and full-scale changing of hearts and minds, for North American denominations to survive the homosexuality crisis. Denominations like the PCUSA, ELCA, RCA, UMC, and Episcopal Church will continue.

They won't fold their tents and join the Southern Baptists (though wouldn't that be interesting!). I'm not suggesting most of our old, mainline denominations will disappear. But I do not see how any of these once flourishing denominations will make it through the present crisis intact.

And the sooner denominations admit this sobering reality the better.

Every denomination is different. The percentages on both sides of the issue and the official positions are not identical. But the basic contours of the problem are quite similar.

On one side you have liberals who want to see the church open its doors to the GLBT agenda. They want homosexual behavior welcomed and affirmed. They want to perform gay marriages. They want gays and lesbians to be ordained to church office. Liberals (or "progressives" or whatever-I'm trying to use neutral labels) see this as a justice issue.

They believe conservatives are simply on the wrong side of history and that one day we will look at our traditional attitudes toward gays and lesbians like we look at old attitudes toward African Americans or our old attitudes toward women's ordination. We will be embarrassed to see that we could have been so blind and bigoted for so long.

On the other side you have conservatives who want to see the church maintain purity and biblical fidelity. They want homosexuals to be loved and treated with respect.

But they believe the behavior cannot be tolerated as Christian behavior. They see this as a gospel issue. They believe liberals are simply on the wrong side of the Bible and one day will be embarrassed to see how much we dishonored God by capitulating to our culture. To cave on this issue is not only to reject the plain teaching of Scripture, affirmed for two millennia of church history, but it says to people "peace, peace" where there is no peace.

n the middle are those who want both sides to get along. Maybe these third way folks are liberals willing to let conservatives keep doing their thing for awhile because they believe today's conservatives will slowly evolve or die off. Maybe they are institutional loyalists who want to preserve the denomination at all costs. Maybe they consider homosexuality a relatively minor issue, one not worth fighting over and dividing the church over. Or maybe, as is often the case, those advocating for a third way are conservatives who don't want to be the meanies who put up a fight.

These are the three main parties in this controversy-left, right, and center-and there is no way to make each of them happy. There is no way for mainline denominations to broker a compromise that everyone can live with.

Read more @:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/why-no-denomination-will-survive-the-homosexuality-crisis-78296/

[Prov3456]

Believe me, your "little rural Methodist church" would not have been the only congregation to lose members. I believe most UM churches would lose members in droves and the denomination would collapse from within if we ever do change this policy position on homosexuality.

Heck, we've been fighting over this - and other issues - since the 1968 merger with the EUB church; and the US membership of United Methodism is down 40% in that same period.

Too bad the liberal hierarchy can't figure it out..... :(

[Breto]

I am no expert in Hebrew and do not wish to start a debate on the meaning of ancient text however, I have been told by one that reads and studies the Torah that the word מלא מלא, mâlê', mâlâ', maw-lay', maw-law' when translated properly has different meanings, as do most words, especially when translated. The definition means; to fill, be full of, accomplish, replenish, to have wholly. Perhaps we are both right only God knows for sure. Replenish would give one answer to the 5000 year old earth issue for this creation cycle. Just saying

[Breto]

I am no expert in Hebrew and do not wish to start a debate on the meaning of ancient text however, I have been told by one that reads and studies the Torah that the word מלא מלא, mâlê', mâlâ', maw-lay', maw-law' when translated properly has different meanings, as do most words, especially when translated. The definition means; to fill, be full of, accomplish, replenish, to have wholly. Perhaps we are both right only God knows for sure. Replenish would give one answer to the 5000 year old earth issue for this creation cycle. Just saying Shalom

[Gamecock]

The third way is the liberal way, just at a slower speed.

The denominations mentioned are all considered "liberal." Not from a political standpoint, but theologically.

It all started in the mid 1800s when the inerranccy of Scripture was undermined. It was said then that Scripture is all about man's experience with God, not God's word to man. Paul hated women. On and on it went.

Since they gutted the supernatural, these denominations became more interested in being agents of Social change. Prohibition comes to mind. Women were made ministers. The line between right and wrong became increasingly blurred.

It should be no surprise that this is happening. Theologically conservative denominations will do fine. The old guard has become irrelevant.

[Gamecock]

Salvation for all came through child bearing.

And all this time I thought it was through the perfect obedience of Jesus.

[Gamecock]

In 2010, seven credible cases of abuse were reported in a church that numbers over 65 million adherents.

Reported by whom?

Who decided what is a creible report?

Let me guess, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH?

[Valpal1]

Just look replenish up at dictionary dot com and look at the latin root and medieval meaning and origin.

1300–50; Middle English replenisshen < Middle French repleniss-, long stem of replenir to fill, Old French, equivalent to re- + plenir to fill (derivative of plein < Latin plÄ“nus full )

You have confused the modern meaning with the original meaning. The main meaning of both the Hebrew, Latin and Middle English are all "to fill, full", making it the most likely translation. Using the modern meaning in order to explain your creation mystery/dilemma is assuming a thing not in evidence, that the various writers/translators from hundreds of years ago used a word in a way not yet in usage.

[MEGoody]

On one side you have liberals who want to see the church open its doors to the GLBT agenda, push Jesus out and let sin in.

There. . .fixed it.

[Valpal1]

Er, I think Paul was referring to the fact that Jesus was born of a woman. That even though Eve was deceived, She (whether this means Eve or women in general) brought forth the Salvation of the world through child bearing, so the natural role of women is one that should be respected.

[MEGoody]

due in large part to this issue.

And another issue which is a sacred rite for the church of liberalism - abortion.

[Breto]

” making it the most likely translation”

I did not claim to be an expert such as yourself so please forgive my ponderings. However, I believe only God knows for sure.

Where do you suppose Cain’s wife came from? So many interesting mysteries in Genesis..

Peace

[spunkets]

"Where do you suppose Cain’s wife came from? "

The forest.

[terycarl]

Right, we could have just purchased an indulgence for forgiveness of sins and been golden?????? Dang it, missed the indulgence boat.

you understand neither indulgences nor the Catholic church...it's not too late for you though, we have many methods whereby you can reclaim your true religion (I assume that you are baptized, if so, you are a Catholic)

[Ron C.]

"A lot of people leaving main-line churches and starting independent, autonomous local churches."

That has been happening for a long time - but, it is happening much much more frequently now than ever before.

Fifty years ago I left the mainstream churches and went to 'non-denominational' churches because the 'mainstream' had abandoned the clear words written in the Bible, just to let people 'off the hook' for their sins.

[spunkets]

The Hebrew is translated as replenish. It encompasses more than simple filling as with animals. The command extends to each generation, and refers to the replenishment of the image of God. It's an act that requres more than just filling.

[NKP_Vet]

No way do I believe that number. And the way to stop sexual abuse dead in it’s tracks in the Catholic Church is purge it of homosexual priests. The Church tries to screen applicants for the priesthood alot closer now, but some still get in the door. It is documented fact that most homosexual men can’t control their sexual urges, and most like to go after teenage boys. Probably 98% of sexual abuse cases involve the homosexual men that were allowed in the priesthood in the 60s and 70s. Most cases are decades old. But lawyers see a fast buck when they hear the world Catholic. The media also will never tell you when they report a story about a priest sexually molesting a kid that the priest is a homosexual. That’s because they love sodomites and don’t want to make them look bad.

[Valpal1]

I think Cain married a sister. DNA was still new and practically perfect then. God didn’t prohibit sister marriage until Moses. Abraham and Sarah were half siblings.

The prohibition against incest is about not concentrating damaged genes in the gene pool as a damaged and aging creation continues to “wax old like a garment”(Psalm 102:26 m

[Cronos]

correct. When folks can vote on dogma or have their own interpretations on anything, then anything is possible.

with orthodoxy it's comfortable to say "well, Holy Tradition says we don't do that, so it's not possible to change."

[Cronos]

Yes, Skypilot's posts and selective reviewing....

I remember a poster once didn't even know that the Pope had criticized Islam in the Regensburg address and didn't even follow the news about the calls for his death by Moslems for this -- the excuse given I think was "how do you expect me to read all the news"

And they will make snide comments on Christianity with their selective reading...

[SkyPilot]

There have been so many issues raised in these last few posts, that I struggle to address them all. However, I will try. But first, my prayer is that I follow God's charge in this, to wit:

"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ." - Ephesians 4:15

Let's start at the beginning. arthurus wrote: The Catholic Church is not experiencing these wrenching changes. I took his post as basically a braggart's boast that the Catholic church was above the din per the article's take on homosexuality dividing denominations, and therefore immune. Nothing could be further from the truth, and in fact I provided a very brief example of Father Cozzens' research into the fact that between 1/4 and perhaps over 1/2 of all priests are homosexual.

Campion responded with ad hominem attacks on Father Cozzens accusing him of being a liberal, and his research being dated by several years. This was a "shoot the messenger" retort with no evidence of Cozzens supposed liberalism. I don't know Cozzens very well, and he certainly is probably less conservative on issues than I am, but that in now way can easily dismiss his book, his research, or his estimate of the high numbers of homosexual priests in the ranks. Campion also added that the good Father Cozzens has also associated with ("pals around) Catholics who have attended Voice of the Faithful meetings. I don't know much about VOTF, other than it was formed in response to the homosexual-pedophile priest sexual scandal and has also associated with the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

Even if all of that were true, it introduces a whole new set of problems for the argument that Catholics are above it all when it comes to the clear and present issue of homosexuality and that the Catholic church is somehow unified and speaks with one voice. Clearly, the Catholic church has one heck of a problem with homosexual priests. John Paul danced around the issue, and clearly did not wish to address the massive problem of homosexuality in the ranks. He effectively likened the multiple and documented (legal and criminal) cases of priest raping young boys as a case of a few bad apples rather than a horrible underlying problem:

"As priests we are personally and profoundly afflicted by the sins of some of our brothers who have betrayed the grace of ordination in succumbing even to the most grievous forms of the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the world. Grave scandal is caused, with the result that a dark shadow of suspicion is cast over all the other fine priests who perform their ministry with honesty and integrity and often with heroic self-sacrifice. As the Church shows her concern for the victims and strives to respond in truth and justice to each of these painful situations, all of us...are called to embrace the ‘mysterium Crucis’ and to commit ourselves more fully to the search for holiness." Pope John Paul II

There were brave men in the Catholic church, like Monsignor Andrew Baker, who lobbied for the expulsion of "gay" priests, but those voices were ignored and shut down.

Whether or not any of you even acknowledge the scope of the problem or accept the high numbers of homosexual priests in your midst - you must accept what scripture says about the terrible consequences of allowing men of such low character has done. The Bible clearly speaks of the high standards required in both 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:6-9. If a large number of priests are homosexual men (and there are), then it is without dispute that the Catholic church has a massive problem on it's hands which it has steadfastly refused to properly address - even to this day.

Moreover, if a man like Cozzens, who has held a plethora of assignments within the Catholic church (decades of experience as a priest, vicar of clergy, doctorate in psychology, and seminary rector) can be so easily dismissed, then where is this "unity" that the Catholics say they have, but Protestant denominations lack?

NKP_Vet's said he/she does not believe the high number of homosexuals in the Catholic church either. However, I must say I agree with many of things he/she said in his/her post:

And the way to stop sexual abuse dead in it’s tracks in the Catholic Church is purge it of homosexual priests. The Church tries to screen applicants for the priesthood alot closer now, but some still get in the door. It is documented fact that most homosexual men can’t control their sexual urges, and most like to go after teenage boys. Probably 98% of sexual abuse cases involve the homosexual men that were allowed in the priesthood in the 60s and 70s. Most cases are decades old. But lawyers see a fast buck when they hear the world Catholic. The media also will never tell you when they report a story about a priest sexually molesting a kid that the priest is a homosexual.

I disagree that the problem has been somehow solved or muted regarding homosexuality in the seminaries and within the priesthood ranks. I have not seen any evidence that the Catholic church has taken appropriate steps to screen out men of such malevolent character (and yes, homosexuality is malevolent and inherently evil). God condemns it in the most harshest and strongest language (Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1: 21-28).

As to Cronos' comment: And they will make snide comments on Christianity with their selective reading...

I don't know what is "selective" about this debate, nor do I see where I have made "snide comments on Christianity."

If any denomination I belonged began advocate apostate teaching that was in disagreement with Scripture, I would leave it. There are Protestant churches that are apostate. I saw a supposedly "Baptist" church in Massachusetts that had a lesbian female pastor who was to the left of Barack Obama. Paul wrote in the most vehement terms about the dangers of these false teachers. However, this evil does exist. I disassociate myself from their false teaching and I don't claim them as my own.

For Catholics who are likewise caught in the crossfire of false teachings and evil, then true followers of what Christ are likewise warriors on the same battlefield. We both want to defeat evil. We must be careful, however, to fail to see the speck in the eye of our own churches because it would make us uncomfortable. Christ warned of this as well in Matthew 7:3.

Homosexuality is a vast evil. It rapes, it destroys, it feeds off of the innocent.

Any true follower of Christ should be hesitant to condemn it - - no matter where it is found.