Posted on 06/03/2012 1:47:18 PM PDT by Salvation
You can't say that!
I didn't hear ABOUT RC's not considering UC's legit, I heard them SAY IT themselves.
I saw and heard the attitudes and words myself from the RC's themselves.
Can you not understand the difference between hearing about something and hearing it personally?
So you think that when I heard the RC's disparaging the UC's it wasn't true? Do tell. How does that work?
Well, since she was talking about her experiences, then you have shown that truth is a relative term for you.
No, the truth is not relative. She has made claims that are not true:
Roman Catholics don't consider Ukrainian Catholics quite good enough and the Ukrainian Catholics know it.
Roman Catholics didnt consider them *real* Catholics.
Because the claims she's making based on some conversation she may or may not have had are not true.
It appears that, even with the added links about experiences of OTHER Ukrainian Catholics, like I said, some people cannot tolerate ANY negative criticism about their church
Fair criticism is tolerated. But I won't sit by letting you or anyone else make untrue claims about the Church. I'm sorry that bothers you, but that's the way it is.
As long as you keep it up, you only continue to prove it.
As long as I defend the Church against untrue claims, I only prove that I am not going to tolerate it.
The Ukrainian Greek Catholics are in full communion with the Church and the Pope. They are fully accepted. That's the truth, and if that bothers you and your posse, I can't help that.
Yes, I can. You claimed that Roman Catholics don't consider Ukrainian Catholics quite good enough. You've presented nothing but hearsay and rumor. I've shown you the actual position of the Church, and the views of Catholic laity.
So you think that when I heard the RC's disparaging the UC's it wasn't true?
What you presented as evidence is nothing but hearsay and rumor. What you may or may not have heard is not true - Ukrainian Greek Catholics, are Catholic. Contrary to what you posted, they are in unity with the Church.
How does that work?
Not very well for you.
You guys are the ones keeping it going, and I'm happy to oblige.
My "posse"? LOL! I only pinged them because they had already posted comments to this thread that addressed the historic discord that DOES exist between SOME UCs and RCs. You can choose to ignore them, but they are what they are. The only reason I have entered the discussion is because Metmom is a FRiend and she has NO reason to lie about her experiences - NONE! If I kept on and kept on nagging and harassing one of your fellow FReeper Catholics for stupid reasons, I doubt very much you would go sit in the corner and cool off. And here's a newsflash for you....you aren't "defending the Church against untrue claims", you are giving an all-too-familiar knee jerk reaction to anything that can be construed as negative about your church. It couldn't be plainer. It's one thing to state a dogma of the church incorrectly but it's entirely different when someone who WAS a Catholic talks about their experiences with Catholics in their own life. I don't know what it will take for you to understand this point, but I'm done trying to help you.
Thanks. Chernobyl-what a tragedy, including in how it was handled.
Here's a new flash for you:
The claim that the UKGCC is considered not good enough to be Catholic is not true.
The claim that Catholics don't consider the UKGCC to be real Catholics is not true.
I'm done trying to help you.
LOL. Thanks.
Who made that claim?
The claim that the UKGCC is considered not good enough to be Catholic is not true.
Who made that claim as well?
The claim that Catholics don't consider the UKGCC to be real Catholics is not true.
You can't know that unless you've personally asked every single Roman Catholic on the planet. Did you?
Who made that claim?
You did in 353.
The claim that the UKGCC is considered not good enough to be Catholic is not true.
Who made that claim as well?
You did in 403.
You can't know that unless you've personally asked every single Roman Catholic on the planet. Did you? You can't know that unless you've personally asked every single Roman Catholic on the planet. Did you?
Catholics do consider the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to be real Catholics.
a few comments in response:
1. re: mocking derision. when i see storm clouds gathering, i know it’s going to rain. when i hear someone say abraham lincoln was the first president of the us, i know they don’t know american history. and sadly, when i read someone say Irenaeus didn’t practice infant baptism, i know i am dealing with someone who doesn’t know Church history. here is the quote for anyone who didn’t read my prior post:
“He came to save all through Himself; all, i say, who through Him are reborn in God: INFANTS, and children and yoths.....” ( my emphasis ) Irenaeus learned the faith from Polycarp, who learned from John. Ireneaus taught Hippolytus, who said infant baptism was taught by the Apostles. does anyone think Polycarp didn’t know if the Apostle John baptized infants? does anyone think Ireneaus didn’t know what Polycarp though of infant baptism? was Hippolytus dreaming, when after learning the faith from Irenaeus, he wrote “the apostolic tradition” in 215ad and said infant baptism was from the Apostles?
2.”our common ancestors in the faith” i see this thinking a lot. for someone to be your “common ancestor”, you need to hold the same “common faith” the church fathers believed in baptismal regeneration, do you? they believed in infant baptism, do you? they believed in the Catholic Church, do you? they believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, do you? i could go on, but i think my point is made. how could they be your common ancestor in faith if you would not have worshipped with them and they wouldn’t give you the Eucharist even if you did worship with them since you deny it is the Body of Christ?
3. infant baptism is a minor issue, REALLY??? you should have told the Baptists that, they seemed to have caused a lot of trouble in the 16th century over a “minor issue”
4. the core of the problem is a complete misunderstanding of what baptism is. baptism is for the remission of sins, receiving the Holy Spirit and placing us “into Christ”. no one was ever told to be baptized as an “outward testimony” ( please provide Scripture for this assertion ) or to be obedient ( again, Scripture please ) as i proved previously these are 16th century inventions. John, Polycarp, Ireneaus and Hippolytus all believed in the Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
5.” i don’t dispute the concept developed....” translation, i hope it developed, because if it didn’t, i have a different Gospel than traditional, historical Christianity. what is the proof of this “development”? THERE IS NONE. History shows the Catholic Church dealt with many heresies in the 1st four centuries after Christ, but there is NO RECORD of any “bible christians” who opposed the Catholics in this regard. WHY NOT, WHERE WERE THEY? again, imagine the controversy that would ensue if one day a local parish was practicing “believers baptism” and then the next day the priest was baptizing a baby!!
5. “it is not the act that saves us” who are we to believe in this regard you or the Holy Spirit who thru Peter, tells us baptism does save us? Baptism is not done by us, it is not a “work” Baptism is done TO US, by the Holy Spirit, through the Body of Christ on earth, the Church.
6. “ i follow His teachings as laid out in Holy Scripture”
REALLY? Jesus prayed in John 17 that His followers be One, as a testimony to the world. Do you follow Your Lord in this regard or do you seperate yourself from His Church and contribute to the religious confusion and make all kinds of accusations against the Church? Paul exhorts the Corinthians to be One and not have any dissention. Do you follow Paul in this regard? Many will say Lord, Lord, and think they were being obedient, but they are really in rebellion against the Lord.
Finally, i wish to comment on this whole notion of former Catholics and alleged former Catholics being attacked on FR for disagreeing with Catholic doctrine. Speaking for myself, i have no problem with anyone disagreeing with the Church on anything IF THEY CORRECTLY STATE THE TRUE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. I can’t think of one “former” or alleged former Catholic who has ever correctly stated the Catholic doctrine, never. so i will read Catholics worship Mary, bread, statues, Catholics aren’t allowed to read the Bible, Catholics believe we are saved by works, Catholics think the Pope is perfect, Catholics think we will be God, etc etc. If i ever read a former Catholic correctly state Catholic doctrine, i think i would pass out!! i would feel they would deserve a prize! But then i realize that if they really did understand Catholic doctrine, they would still be Catholic! so i for one, will continue to expose the phony former Catholics who obviously learned what they know about the Faith from someone who they themselves have no clue or a comic book tract of some kind.
but i love the discussion, because i believe someone is going to actually look up Irenaeus and see what this defender of the faith in the second century actually believed ( and that’s a very good thing for Christ and His Church! )
I said that the RC's and the UC's don't consider each other *real* Catholics. It isn't a matter of the official church position being that of unity, it's a matter of the lay Catholics who are not unified.
Do try some reading comprehension lessons.
Catholics do consider the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to be real Catholics.
Maybe the ones YOU know. It's not an opinion that is universally held.
I didn't say that the RCC doesn't consider the UCC in unity with them.
I said that the RC's and the UC's don't consider each other *real* Catholics. It isn't a matter of the official church position being that of unity, it's a matter of the lay Catholics who are not unified.
Do try some reading comprehension lessons.
Catholics do consider the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to be real Catholics.
Maybe the ones YOU know. It's not an opinion that is universally held.
how does your line of thinking here work in 1 Corinthians 1:16? can you prove from the Scripturs that there were no babies or infants in the household of Steph’anas?
oh, do you have any Scripture that support “ the scriptures forbid the baptizing of babies”
RITE | CHURCHES THAT USE THIS RITE | ORIGINAL LITURGICAL LANGUAGE | PATRIARCH | POINT OF ORIGIN |
1.ROMAN | All Roman Catholics | Latin | Bishop of Rome | Rome |
MOZARABIC | Archdiocese of Toledo Spain | Latin | Bishop of Rome | Spain |
AMBROSIAN | Archdiocese of Milan, Italy | Latin | Bishop of Rome | Milan |
BRAGAN | Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal | Latin | Bishop of Rome | Braga |
DOMINICAN | Dominican Priests | Latin | Bishop of Rome | St. Dominic |
CARMELITE | Carmelite Priests | Latin | Bishop of Rome | St. Berthold |
CARTHUSIANS | Carthusian Priests | Latin | Bishop of Rome | St. Bruno |
2. BYZANTINE | Belarussian | Old Slavonic | Belarussia | |
Bulgarian | Old Slavonic | Apostolic Exarch for Catholics of the Byzantine-Slav rite in Bulgaria | Bulgaria | |
Croatian | Old Slavonic | Bishop of Kricevci | Croatia | |
Greek | Greek | Apostolic Exarch for Catholics of the Byzantine rite in Greece | Greece | |
Hungarian | Greek | Bishop of Hajdudorog, Apostolic Administrator of Miskolc | Hungary | |
Italo-Albanian | Greek | Local Latin Bishop | Italy | |
Melkite | Greek | Melkite Greek Patriarch of Damascus | Syria/Lebanon/Israel | |
Romanian | Romanian | Archbishop of Fagaras and Alba Julia | Romania | |
Russian | Old Slavonic | Apostolic Exarch in Russia | Russia | |
Ruthenian | Old Slavonic | Bishop of Mukacevo of the Byzantines | Ukrania | |
Slovakian | Old Slavonic | Bishop of Presov of Catholics of the Byzantine rite | Slovakia | |
Ukrainian | Old Slavonic | Major Archbishop of Lviv of the Ukranians | Ukrania | |
3.ALEXANDRIAN | Coptic | Coptic | Patriarch of Alexandria of the Copts | Egypt |
Ethiopian | Ge'ez | Archbishop of Addis Ababa of the Ethiopians | Ethiopia/Somalia | |
4. SYRIAC | Syriac | Syriac Patriarch of Antioch | Syria | |
Malankarese | West Syriac | Metropolitan of Trivandrum of the Syro-Malankarese | India | |
5. ARMENIAN | Armenian | Classical Armenian | Patriarch of Cilicia of the Armenians | Armenia |
6. MARONITE | Maronite | Aramaic | Maronite Patriarch of Antioch | Lebanon |
7. CHALDEAN | Chaldean | Syriac | Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans | Iraq |
|
Malabar | Syriac | Major Archbishop of the Malabar rite | India |
Published by The Minnesota St. Thomas More Chapter of Catholics United for the Faith, March/April 2000.
It is, however Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds foretold a longtime from beginning to end of it’s fulfillment
that’s the difference between us, Catholics know the Church is the Body of Christ on earth, protected by the Holy Spirit and is the pillar of truth.
others believe it is man made organization like the moose club. it’s a shame.
Cronos, thanks for the geography lesson. i cringe when i hear many Americans call Ukraine “the Ukraine”
Yes, you did. In 353 you said the churches had "labels" slapped on them specifying what they were, that neither considered the other legit, concluding with "so much for unity within Catholicism".
I said that the RC's and the UC's don't consider each other *real* Catholics. It isn't a matter of the official church position being that of unity, it's a matter of the lay Catholics who are not unified.
Here's what you really said in 431: "Roman Catholics didnt consider them *real* Catholics. Borderline, sort of maybe, but pretty iffy about getting in. Better than Orthodox or Protestants however."
There was no mention of "lay Catholics not being unified," which is something you just added.
Catholics do consider the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to be real Catholics.
Maybe the ones YOU know. It's not an opinion that is universally held.
It is the universally held position of both churches. The only ones claimed not to believe that are through rumor and hearsay.
Thanks, Salvation. That’s a very useful chart.
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