Posted on 03/31/2012 8:03:04 PM PDT by Salvation
The thing/things to be fulfilled are God’s promises/covenants. I trust in God’s love for those who love Him. Being sovereign, He does what He wills.
My guess for the why of creation is His glory, as hard to grasp as that is.
“The word Rapture is connected to the Latin word rapiemur, which appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up: Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term Rapture, nor do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.” Jim Blackburn http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture.
Which, logically, is why it should be purified and returned to its original state, not burned up.
Would you give the Book, chapter and verse for that?
I’m sorry that I did not limit my guess to the creation of the material world. Perhaps there are spiritual concerns which we are even less able to comphrehend.
Purification is often accomplished through burning.
In 2 Peter 3:10-14 is writing of a new earth and new heavens made suitable for righteousness.
I hope you keep searching for a better answer than I can give, rather than concluding that God blundered.
Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time. If they're not.. then they don't have a leg to stand on in their arguements.
Noah took care to do what God asked by stock piling the ark and preparing....so those who think they'll be going thru this time better get in gear if not doing so now.
I'm not sure. It seems to me though there is quite enough of a possibility that after He returns, but before raising the dead, He could "fight Armegeddon". That is, the passage in 1 Thess doesn't necessarily preclude something else He might do after He returns. However I think the timeline as far as the raising of the dead and the "rapture" of the believers is concerned is pretty clear. The dead are raised before all believers are taken to Heaven. Whatever may happen before, or even in between isn't necessarily prohibited by Scripture.
All that said, I'm not sure which event or events you're referring to when you say "[Jesus] fights Armeggedon". Just out of curiosity, as again, 1 Thess doesn't say the *only* thing Jesus will do when He returns is raise the dead and then bring all believers to Heaven.
I have often wondered: what comes AFTER the Second Coming? Will God start it all over again with another human race? I will ask Our Lord when I see Him. I PLAN on seeing Him, after my appropriate time in purgatory. Although, with my hip problem I am now doing purgatory TIME.
I also plan on asking Our Lord about the construction of the human knee. What WAS He thinking of? I have no knee problems but SO many humans do.
Yep, and only 124,000 of those Jews will actually be true believers who survive through the Tribulation. All others who become believers after the rapture will be killed.
>> Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time.<<
There is some serious denial going on with most who don’t believe in the rapture. I’m even stocking up and preparing for the tuff times I think will come before the rapture. It’s only going to get progressively worse after that.
I've been putting off discussion of this with my family members, sons who are grown with chidren now. But in the next few weeks I intend to have serious discussion of what they think and are preparing for ahead.
I know one son has begun stocking food items...and the other has determined a "bug out route"....and place where he believes is safest in the mountains. But these have been comments almost in passing....it's time to do a sit down now.
The problem will be timing....if stuff happens at once and quickly transportation routes will be an issue as well as means of
In other words you don’t have a clue as to what scripture teaches about the end times. Oh well, make sure your trust is in Jesus alone.
Two points here. One, this passage doesn't say, "rescues us from God's wrath", it just says "wrath". Thus, two, it could be taken as an encouragement to endure wrath upon Christianity, IOW, it could be taken as a prophecy of upcoming persecution, and an exhortation that such persecution will be prevailed upon, which of course did occur (early Christians were persecuted, but eventually were "delivered" from such "wrath" when Christianity became leagalized in the Roman Empire.) You may not agree with this alternate hypothesis, but I maintain it's at least as reasonable as yours, despite what you may say to the contrary.
And 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 says that the man of sin can’t be revealed until there’s a removal of a restraining power “Church, body of Christ”
I don't see where in that passage it says "the Body of Christ" must be removed in order to expose the man of sin. Maybe it's my translation. Post yours if you wish.
Here’s another indication of two separate events:
The Gospels say Jesus Christ returns to the earth and conquers it, and the people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats.
The event described here is different in nature then what’s described in 1 Thess 4:15-18. If it’s the same event, there wouldn’t be any sheep left on earth, only goats since the sheep have already been taken to the air to meet the Lord.
I don't see how this excludes the point I made earlier, considering also the fact that 1 Thess 4 doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that Jesus may do something else before He raises the dead. Again, 1 Thess 4 doesn't say the *only* thing He will do is raise the dead, then assume all believers bodily into Heaven.
There certainly ARE Catholics who have decided that they will believe in some stuff and won't believe in other stuff...but there is no disagreement or uncertainly on what our Catholic Church believes and teaches. The Catholic catechism has our entire faith in it--has it all.
However, you very well may have been speaking with Catholics who are NOT versed in their faith at all. With THEM you will definitely have disagreements and uncertainly. It's like speaking with some of the 20,000-30,000+ different Protestant denominations....talk about disagreement and uncertainty.
It must be difficult for some people to see how fractured Christianity is (It's sad for me to see.): ONE Catholic Church and 25,000 (Give or take) different Protestant denominations...talk about disagreement and uncertainty.
I agree with much of what you say, and Salvation, I’ve only been registered a few months, so please pardon a highjack rather than a new thread, but Daniell212, could you provide early citations for the papal sanctions for torture.
I have Damasus about 383 AD, against a Spanish bishop Priscillian.
The earliest biblical justification for force against Christians I’ve seen is Augustine, bishop of Hippo, about 400 AD, citing Luke 14:23, which is a parable concerning compelling probable unbelievers.
Thanks for your help.
So tell me then. Do faithful Christians have to experience the wrath of God during the Tribulation? If they do, would you please show me from scripture where that has ever happened before.
While I appreciate your sincerity, you completely miss the point of my post, which was directed to a Catholic.
The traditional Catholic teaching is that the final end of man is a "spiritual" paradise and that the material universe G-d created in the beginning will be annihilated. This is related to their belief in a purely "spiritual messiah" (a contradiction in terms) and their rejection of a literal King Messiah who presides over a literal messianic kingdom on this earth, which will at some future point be rejuvenated into "the world to come."
My question was purely rhetorical, demanding a defense of this "spiritualism," not because I was soliciting advice on what to believe.
I never said I know everything about the end times, but since you have nothing else to offer in response to my replies other than a snide remark about perceived ignorance on my part, I'll take it as an unsaid agreement on your part that 1 Thess 4:16 clearly indicates the dead will be raised first, before all believers are "raptured" to Heaven. IOW, the notion of a mysterious whisking away of believers, before the very visible return of Jesus, and raising of the dead, is false.
Thanks for your "charity".
Deception is the ‘tribulation’, Matthew 24:3-6 Mark 13:3-— and Luke 21:7-—— recorded three times for emphasis. Christ NEVER uttered one word about a secret escape for the ‘church’, because He fully expects some to be delivered up to fulfill the prophecy of Joel the Prophet that Peter explains in Acts 2:16. Paul was only explaining where the ‘dead’ in the flesh are not an instruction about those getting left behind.
Christ's commanded Christians in Mark 13:35 “Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at the even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
Nothing there about a quick time ticket out of here, because this earth belongs to the Heavenly Father and as it is Written He intends at His appointed time to clean house.
Only problem is that far too many people think they are going to escape to the mountains.
Those who live in rural areas with survivalist leanings already frequently take the view of denying access to anything in their domain except for locals or immediate family.
Logistics will change.
The best solution is to prepare in peacetime how to behave in adversity. Build the society we want now, today, in our own communities. Build it upon faith in Christ and witnessing to others.
Besides, God has a plan for each of us. He will place us where He wants us at the right place and time.
You sure were sure in post 13 however weren’t you. >> IOW, the notion of a mysterious whisking away of believers, before the very visible return of Jesus, and raising of the dead, is false.<<
Wrong! Those who are faithful believers will be ruptured to heaven prior to a seven year tribulation at the end of which Christ will return to the earth, which He doesn’t do at the rapture, to defeat Satan and the armies that come against Israel in the battle of Armageddon.
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