Essays for Lent: The Rapture

StayCatholic.com ^ | 2001 | Sebastian R. Fama

[Salvation]

You haven’t read the Book of Revelation?

I’ve understood that everyone, that is EVERYONE will experience the tribulations mentioned.

[caww]

Actually looks like ‘373AD’ the Rapture was preached as follows..you might find this an interesting read:

In Grant Jeffrey’s book.. “Triumphant Return”,.. he writes that about.. 373 AD ...Ephraem taught in a sermon that there was a pre-tribulation rapture.

This writing can be found in Ephraem’s sermon... “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.”,... Ephraem said in this sermon, ...”For the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins”.

Ephraem also taught in this same sermon that the war of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 would precede the tribulation and he taught the imminent return of Jesus.

[cloudmountain]

So tell me then. Do faithful Christians have to experience the wrath of God during the Tribulation? If they do, would you please show me from scripture where that has ever happened before.

I neither know nor care. Why on earth would I know the answer to that question? It IS an odd question.
You ought to ask your own preacher/priest these questions. Or, you can go to Catholic answers.

Lol. Why on EARTH would you even THINK that I would know the answer to that??? I plan to AVOID God's wrath AT ALL TIMES. I will let others like you worry about the Tribulation. I have tomorrow to worry about and my bad hip.

[Cvengr]

Whenever a theology gets justification straight, they tend to develop a literal interpretation of Scripture. Later as they advance through other doctrines, the eschatology then becomes pretrib premil.

Even the Puritans before the end of the 17th century became premil, whereas their previous doctrines a century earlier were quite different.

[caww]

Well the way this country is turning now it's going to be more than difficult at best to "Build the society we want now, today, in our own communities" as you say.......I think we've pretty much passed that time though the Gospel message continues to ring out when God appoints such a time for an individual.

As for bugging out to the mountains...he has a place there to bug out to so it's not like he doesn't have a destination nor without knowledge of who lives out there.

I think what I'm doing is determining if or not I myself am included with their plans and if so how to go about connecting....and or... do so in the year ahead so I'm closer should events heat up. If it would prove otherwise then I need to do what I can here and now....as my other plan failed to come to fruition as hoped...and the clock is ticking.

[FourtySeven]

You sure were sure in post 13 however weren’t you.

I never said in post 13 or anywhere that what I was describing was in perfect detail everything about the end times. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything.. I was only asserting that what 1 Thess 4 seemingly clearly shows is that Christ will visibly return, and the dead will be raised (verse 16) before the believers are assumed bodily into Heaven (verse 17).

The last word is yours if you need it, but know this: I'm not interested in anything else you have to say here, unless you wish to explain how the dead are not raised before the "rapture" of believers, because that would be interesting. After all, as I did say in post 13, "Scripture SEEMS pretty clear on this" (not I "know" Scripture is pretty clear on this). "seems" doesn't mean "know". It means it appears, to me, but I'm willing to hear how I could be wrong. So, if you're willing to show how I'm wrong about 1 Thess 4, then I'm willing to listen. I'm not willing to listen if you're going to be insulting however.

And by the way, you won't convince me (and thus will be ignored), if you simply give other Scripture passages to "show" the "rapture" comes first, because quite frankly I'll never believe Scripture condradicts itself, and that's exactly what that kind of "argument" will necessarily imply.

[CynicalBear]

Yeah, basically you make statements and have no background from scripture whit which to defend those statements.

>>I have tomorrow to worry about and my bad hip.<<

There’s your problem. Do a search in scripture on “take therefore no thought for tomorrow”. In fact, why don’t you go straight to Matthew 6.

BTW I had polio when I was two and now have post polio so don’t cry to me about your hip.

[CynicalBear]

>> I’ve understood that everyone, that is EVERYONE will experience the tribulations mentioned.<<

I’ve not only read Revelation but studied it extensively. Faithful believers do not experience God’s wrath. Many promises are given in scripture to believers that they will escape the wrath to come. Its current unbelievers who will experience that wrath just as unfaithful Israelites were punished by God and then returned to Him. It will cause some to repent and be killed but current faithful believers are promised to be kept from that wrath.

[caww]

Even the Puritans before the end of the 17th century became premil, whereas their previous doctrines a century earlier were quite different.

Interesting..I didn't know that about the Puritans.

But I do tend to think that once an individual does see both sides of the issues and this with the 'literal' interpretation of scripture...they do move to pre-mil and pre-trib....For myself after studying the two it simply confirmed what I believed to begin with...but now I knew 'why' I believed it, not just because it was taught.

There are just too many holes which open wider when people "spiritualize" what's written.....and that gives way then to anything being possible...whatever one might "think" could be or imagine. In fact many of the false religions and cults today are deeply into "spiritualizing" text and thus mis-lead many.

[CynicalBear]

>>Actually looks like ‘373AD’ the Rapture was preached as follows..you might find this an interesting read:<<

Isn’t it amazing.

[anathemized]

Thank you for your kindness.

Tracking back, I do see I missed the sense of your post #15.

I’ll try to keep up.

Hosanna

[CynicalBear]

The concept of the Rapture does not preclude that the “dead in Christ” rise first. They do rise first than those of us who are faithful believers will be “caught up with them” to meet the Lord in the air. Christ does not return to earth at the rapture. It’s after Armageddon that those who perished during the tribulation are raised.

[caww]

I know...I chanced across that and found it just that amazing..... However it did take the deciples quite awhile to "get it" on much that Jesus taught. "Have I been with you so long and still ...you don't get it"...(paraphrased a bit there ;)

I can't imagine someone thinking they're going to experience the tribulation period. That's 'like' not having the assurance of ones Salvation....or imagining themselves hanging in the purgatory mode. How awful to be seemingly hanging out there not knowing when Jesus made it so clear "that we may know".

[caww]

Yes...agreed.

[FourtySeven]

Interesting, thank you. What you describe is possible given that the dead are raised first.

Now, let me make this question clear, as apparently I wasn’t clear before: Verse 16 also states that Christ will visibly return, “loudly”, before the dead are raised, doesn’t it? Thus, since we agree the dead are raised before the “rapture” of all believers, doesn’t this mean Christ returns visibly before all of this?

Again, seems pretty clear to me. It seems to be simple logic.

[CynicalBear]

>> Verse 16 also states that Christ will visibly return, “loudly”, before the dead are raised, doesn’t it?<<

Not “loudly” for the unbeliever. Remember that they don’t even hear His voice.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It happens in “the twinkling of an eye” 1 Cor. 15:51-52. Unbelievers, if they hear anything at all, will deny just as they do many other things Christians talk about.

[FourtySeven]

Alright, thanks. Goodnight.

[boatbums]

Being Catholic, I take the word of the Church, not words of individual priests. I always look for the words nihil obstat (declaration) and Imprimature (Let it be printed.). Those words make whatever is printed official Church-backed information.

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. Read http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/08/imprimatur-watch-what-youre-reading-my.html for an eyeopening look at what that term actually means and DOESN'T mean.

[Cronos]

cloud —> don’t be taken in by fancy tales from the various Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses or other cultists out here —> they will pass you false links, etc. anything to show their despise of Christ...

[boatbums]

All that said, I'm not sure which event or events you're referring to when you say "[Jesus] fights Armeggedon". Just out of curiosity, as again, 1 Thess doesn't say the *only* thing Jesus will do when He returns is raise the dead and then bring all believers to Heaven.

I wonder why so many people MISS this part of the verses from I Thessalonians 4:13-18

" Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

It seems to be quite clear that the souls of the redeemed who have died in Christ, will be brought back WITH Christ to be reunited with their glorified bodies. Their change happens first, then we who are alive are caught up together WITH them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and then be with him for eternity. We are told to encourage each other with this revelation. Then, in chapter 5 of I Thessalonians, Paul speaks about the Second Coming of Christ upon the earth where ALL eyes will see him and this happens at the end of the seven year Tribulation.