Posted on 03/18/2012 6:38:49 PM PDT by EnglishCon
A few people asked me to write this, after a couple of comments I made on another thread. The first few chapters of Genesis are, with minimal mental gymnastics, a clear and accurate statement of science, as we understand it today.
I am not talking from any particular creed here. Though a Catholic, (and without any authority!), I am from a background of a devout Protestant and much less devout Jewish culture who is, like many people, simply looking for answers. My training was as a Biochemist, at a time when we were first starting to map the genome. So, feel free to take this with a grain of salt, or a bargeload. This is not doctrine. Not meant to persuade or compell people to my views. Heck, I am still working out my views! My faith is solid. So is, to me, the evidence.
It is simply to analyse Genesis under the same scientific method that nuclear physics is examined. I will, for clarity, be using the King James Bible, available on-line at http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvGene.html, as it is the version most people both know and accept. I will be simplifying some concepts - not losing the core concept, but trying to make them accessible. And please forgive me for any formatting screw-ups, I am more used to writing and passing things on to editors!
Genesis 1
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Verse 3 is the core of the story here. "Let there be light." According to current cosmological theories, roughly 13.7 billion years ago, there was nothing at all. Without form and void in truth - there was no space, no time, nothing. Then that nothngness exploded. Why? We haven't got a clue. While we know it happened since the universe's background microwave radiation hum confirms that, We don't know why. We can never know why. Yet we know that the dark, formless universe exploded for no reason, creating it, and by extension us. We are told why, the word was spoken, and the universe in all it's glory was created.
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Stars don't come from nothing. Nor do planets. We can see the slow, steady aggregation of gases into stars. We have pictures, again testifying to the glory of God. Stars form from clouds of hydrogen gas. The heavier elements get spun out and away from the protostar. Eventually, the star's gravitational field gets strong enough to light the star. It is another flare of light, with the sudden solar wind forcing the light gases well out and starting random aggregations of heavier elements spinning and collecting. Getting bigger while orbiting the star. Outer planets catch a lot of the gas blasted away when the star ignites. Inner planets are looking at the heavier stuff that doesn't shift much under light pressure.
9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.
This is a twofer. A spinning ball of molten rock eventually cools down, though it keeps on spinning. There is water there. It can't escape, gravity is too strong. Something that hydrogen can do, water can not. It simply stays in the air as vapor, until the surface temperature cools to a level where it can condense and land. Then, of course, it finds the lowest level it can. You know the phrase "Water finds it's own level."
Our original atmosphere was totally unbreathable. That is in the rock record, not a guess. A mix of Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and Methane, a teeny bit of sulfur, with a tiny bit of Hydrogen and a mass of water vapor thrown in. Genesis mentions the seas for a reason. All life comes from the sea. The first life to creep out of the sea and onto the shore was plants.
14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
OK, for this one I have to hit more rogue science than accepted science. I apologise for that. Roughly 3 billion years ago, after photosynthesis started, we got hit, hard. A huge blast of molten rock headed into orbit from the Pacific Basin like a homesick meteor and aggregated around our satellite. It is slightly rogue, but we know that lunar rock and Earth rock are identical. We have been there and checked. The rocks are identical.
20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Every last living organism comes from the sea. Our blood chemistry proves it conclusively. Whether iron based or copper/magnesium based, if I take 10cc of blood from you, I can guarantee that the salt proportion is identical to the sea a couple of billion years or so ago. Again, there is no guess work involved, we have seas that have been dry for that long for comparison of the proportions. God is here clearly stating that we came from the sea. No get outs, no do overs. We even, if you want to be slightly fanciful, have a nod to dinosaurs. After all, they, or at least some of them, eventually became winged fowl.
24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This is the difficult one. One that I have problems with, since evolution and this statement of the Word seem at first glance to be at odds. So I am going to repeat something. Forgive me for stretching slightly to make a point.
We don't breathe water. Yet we came from the sea - that is from both the Word itself and the evidence as we understand it. We see random action. He does not. By definition God gets no surprises, he sees the consequences of everything. As a side note, that must be boring. Never a single surprise unless you deliberately don't look. No wonder he gave us free will! (Sure, I know. Putting human motivations and limitations on the Lord is demeaning. It is also tempting.)
Still, look at the order we are given. Fish, Fowl, every other living thing third. The classic chain of evolution. Plants first and so basic that they are every living thing's meat. Without plants, we simply die. Fish to reptiles/amphibians. Reptiles to birds and mammals. Mammals to primacy under God.
This was fun to write. Difficult, as I am more a biosciences person than a physicist, but fun. If there is sufficient interest I will do the same for Genesis 2.
Once more, I want to repeat. I don't seek converts to my viewpoint. How can one do so, when their viewpoint is "This makes sense but I am guessing the mind of the unknowable here." If you firmly believe that the world was created 6000 years ago as it is, may His peace and blessing be upon you, and I apologise for wasting your time. Part of this is seeking to explain things to myself.
Yet I want to pre-emptively defend myself from some of the more common comments, as I am not a total fool. The universe, and all that is in it, works through fixed and immutable laws, as far as we are aware. Shift the numeric value of any major constant by under 1% and we are a dust of sub atomic particles. The presence of constants themselves are profound indicators of the creator. One of my professors, way back when university was a place to learn and not an indoctrination center, said the mere fact that universal constants exist is one of the strongest arguments for God.
By their works shall you know them. We are told that. By the Lord's works shall you know him. He laid out, in terms a person who has never heard of an electron or the speed of light or Planck's constant can understand, where we came from and how.
Thank you for reading. May he bless and uplift us all.
Thank you for that. I will lean harder on that aspect for Genesis 2. Maybe, eventually, will re-write this one to expand and include more detail.
It is something, as I said, that pulled me back to God. Had the usual phase in my late teens where I did not believe. Was proudly (and aggressively) atheist.
I wasn’t intentionally ignoring you. You posted several links that I had to read, digest and, in a couple of cases, pray on. I thank you for the links. Pretty much killed half a day that should have been spent working, but it was worth it!
Hard science is rarely provisional, but it depends on existing knowlege. A poster upthread (courtesy pinged) is a Ph.D in semiconductors - those things may as well be magic to me by my understanding of how they work, since the only thing I know about them is n-p-n and p-n-p junctions, and that is hazy.
Sure, the whole idea of causality is having some problems at the moment (heck, it gives me a headache trying to follow the arguments), and for things you can’t see your are working through inference and inspiration more than observation, but that is no huge problem.
I read your link. If people take the time to read something I write and bother to reply, I owe them the courtesy to read what they link.
The official Church stance on evolution has, if you will forgive the pun, evolved. http://www.lastseminary.com/genesis-modern-science/Evolutionary%20Creation.pdf is a good summary of the position that
“Today, the Church’s unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God.”
Gahh! I hate it when I hit post instead of preview!
Sorry, to continue:
Physical and biological processes are pretty well understood on the macro level now. We even know there are things we can never know - things that will forever be solely known by God.
Evolution has a mass of evidence for it. There is also a mass of evidence that it proceeds as God himself directs, even for the minor species.
Yet some things cannot be explained by evolution on it’s own. The soul, for example. Why do I have one and my cat (an extraordinarily affectionate beast) does not?
The timeline itself. 3 billion years is a long time, but simply not long enough for evolution to produce the diversity we have today without a few nudges.
Heck, life itself, that conversion of inanimate chemicals into something that eats, grows and breeds is simply impossible without God.
Creation has it’s problems too.
Extinctions, for one. We have living organisms that have been unchanged for millions of years. We have ones that simply no longer exist. Ones we have records of as having existed and simply disappeared.
As I said in the post. I have no interest in changing minds. That is not my job, or my desire. I found some interesting correllations between the Word and what we think we know.
Your thesis confuses me.
On one hand you state that you’re drawing a scientific understanding of creation from Scripture.
On the other hand, you discard what Scripture says and instead regurgitate evolutionary theory and timelines.
I sincerely don’t know what you’re trying to say.
Let me step back and ask a couple of questions. Did Adam have a father, or was he created by God and in His image from the dust? Did death exist before sin? These questions become very problematic if you don’t take Scripture at face value.
On one hand you state that you’re drawing a scientific understanding of creation from Scripture.
Other way around. Scripture clearly states, from thousands of years ago, the understanding we have of the universe now. It is phrased in a way a non-technical society can understand, but it is there.
Let me step back and ask a couple of questions. Did Adam have a father, or was he created by God and in His image from the dust?
Not done Genesis 2 yet. Working on it, and I will, again, be referencing the King James Version. Sorry if that seems a bit of a cop out at the moment, but I don’t particularly like releasing a post before it is ready.
Did death exist before sin?
It did. Why should it not? We all have our allotted term. we are told that. Everything dies in the end - even stars and rocks.
These questions become very problematic if you don’t take Scripture at face value.
I find no real problem with these. Scripture tells us the truth. The evidence of the world shows that it is right. Some people need evidence. While I admire immensely people who simply believe, I am more the proverbial guy from Missouri. “Show me.”
Now God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time. I find that something I cannot believe. He is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life. He’d not lie.
I'm interested in your reasoning from Scripture on this. In its simplest form "The wages of sin is death". So how could death exist before sin? Romans 5:12-21 also speaks of sin and death. Sin came into the world by one man. Sin was not in the world at creation. Sin came from outside the world. Sin caused death to enter the race. And both SIN and DEATH came by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION OF GEN. 2:17.
Just curious as to why you believe death existed before sin? THere would be no reason for death.
I’ll have a go! Please note, I am terrible at remembering scripture.
Physical death has always existed. You eventually just lay your body down and move on. They wear out, even with the best care - anyone over 50 can confirm that! We are told our time - 3 score years and 10, and it is again accurate. Impressivly so for a culture that tended to die of old age in their 50s. Sure, some go over, some die earlier. The average though, with a good diet and modern medicine is around 70. (Men die a little younger - no nagged to death jokes please!)
There was a study of the body, purely on engineering principles that found the human spine will degrade to total uselessness in 200 years of use. Knees go out much sooner, about 120. Even the replacement of cells wears out over time.
Yet, we are promised eternal life, and God does not lie. That is my fixed thing here - God does not lie, he cannot.
“The wages of sin is death” to me means if you sin, don’t trust in the Lord and don’t repent, your chances of eternal life go down the tubes because you reject the freely given gift.
The body is not the person. We are admonished on that. The soul is the person. (Please, don’t ask me what a soul is, I have NO idea! That is an area where I trust the Word - I have to.)
Since sin arrived with the first person and before he died, we can’t know. Animals, so I am told, do not go to heaven. Not keen on that idea, but it is something I must accept.
The Bible does flat out tell us in several places that physical lifespans, at least for some, were not as they are now. Reports of people living 400 years, 700 years, for example. That, I must accept. It is in the book. Then again, I know people who are fit and vigorous at over 100 years old, and people who died of old age diseases in their early 20s.
Still working on this aspect - understanding the Word is a journey that is life long - but that is my take.
You wrote, “Some people need evidence.” I’m the same way.
You wrote, “God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time.” I’m not following you. What would the “joke” be? That He really did create “all this” in less than a week?
From your response, I take it that you don’t believe there was an Adam. And that there wasn’t an Eve. And that there’s no “Original Sin.” And that Scripture prophesies that the serpent’s head will be crushed by Jesus. And that God did not clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins. And that there’s consequently no need for a “Second Adam.”
Christian doctrine becomes very convoluted if you don’t accept some foundational things about creation and our place in it.
Two things to ponder as you continue going through Genesis:
1) Was Adam created with the appearance of age?
2) How much water is stored within the mantle of the earth? Is it more or less than all the water in the oceans?
People haven’t always lived a mere 70-ish years. There was a time when people lived hundreds of years.
Two questions to ponder, regarding lifespan:
1) What significant event took place the year 969-year-old Methuselah died?
2) Prior to that event, people lived hundreds of years. Following that event, people gradually came to live fewer and fewer years. Did that “event” change the environment in such a way that humans just weren’t able to live as long as before?
EnglishCon — there’s a lot in Scripture. A lot that can be missed by digging deep into secular evolutionary theories, rather than digging deep into God’s Word and creation. It really is fascinating how it all comes together to support what it plainly says.
Indeed. For example, Noah's name has a numerical value of 58, and Noah died when Abraham was 58 years old. Similarly, the numerical value of "Shem" is 340, and the Haflagah (scattering of the nations at Babel) took place 340 years after the Flood.
All human history falls within the lifespans of seven men: Adam, Methuselah, Shem, Jacob, Amram, 'Achiyyah HaShiloni, and Elijah (who is still alive).
Of course, Protestants don't get it right either.
Gotta be divisive, hm? You can't simply affirm Scripture. Nice.
Kabbalah and reincarnation???? Really???
Yeah, this Protestant refuses to "get" it, thank you very much. This does explain quite a bit about where you are coming from these many years. The Bible doesn't teach that reincarnation happens, but that a man lives once and then after wards faces judgment. The Messiah HAS already come as the suffering servant/the lamb of God of Isaiah and he WILL come again in glory as the triumphant King of Kings to set up his earthly kingdom.
For those interested in what ZC may be talking about, read http://www.tzfat-kabbalah.org/whatis.asp?p=699:
The Revelation
“From this day on, you must reveal yourself and tell the world what I have taught you” Achiya Shiloni told his student. Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov was in shock and deeply sorrowed. He was experienced in the practice of the hidden righteous and the kabbalists who acted in Europe in small groups, in great modesty. The concept of “revelation” was foreign to him and alien to the ways of the hidden kabbalists. Achiya HaShiloni revealed to his student that his soul was the reincarnation of the Jew who had lived in Tzfat in the late 16th century, whose soul had come back to earth for the purpose of revealing and being revealed. When the Baal Shem Tov heard about the origin of his soul and its special mission in the world, he accepted the task and began revealing and disseminating the teachings of Hassidism, which exposed and discovers the inner dimensions of the Kabbalah and the secrets of the Torah.
The Rise of the Soul
Thirteen years later, on the Eve of Rosh Hashanah, the Baal Shem Tov was granted a special rising of the soul, in which his soul reached the hall of the Messiah in the supreme worlds. Seeing great joy there, he asked the Messiah when he would come, the Messiah replied, “When your springs are disseminated, when your teachings and secrets are revealed to the entire world.” The story of the origin of the soul of the Baal Shem Tov in the Tzfat Jew of the 16th century and its reincarnation in the world, and the story of the rising of the soul, is told by the Baal Shem Tov himself in his letters, which were widely publicized and printed in several books
And in v. 2 the "was" = "existed" cannot be linguistically twisted to mean "became" = "the result of a process"?? Worth pondering on -- eh?
Yes. The Law of Double Reference.
Sorry for the delay in responding, first work got in the way and even I sleep sometimes! Bit tired and groggy still (no longer allowed to drink coffee, so waking is a chore some mornings!), so, once more, please forgive any formatting errors or misunderstandings.
You wrote, “God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time.” I’m not following you. What would the “joke” be? That He really did create “all this” in less than a week?
Let us say, for a second, that the universe and all that was in it were created in 6 24 hour periods, about 6000 years ago, with a rest of 24 hours before God created man. Sure, He could certainly do so. He is, after all, the Creator.
Yet why does all the evidence we can find - millions of man years of work by the most gifted minds - show everything as much, much older? Would the Lord headfake us like that? Plant false clues to lead us astray? I just can’t see that.
Sure, he has been known to be evasive from time to time - “I am who I am” springs to mind - but I can’t think of a single instance when either God himself or our Saviour lied.
“From your response, I take it that you don’t believe there was an Adam.”
No where have I said that, or indeed implied it. The fall is a fundamental part of the creed, one I believe with all my heart. I just wish to discuss that in the next chapter.
Your responses, and others, are REALLY helping with Genesis 2, showing me areas I still need to examine.
Thank you for that! Some, I honestly doubt I’ll be able to answer. No one person can comprehend everything, but the research is fascinating in its own right.
Arghh! Sorry friend, I thought I HAD replied to you! Let me do so now.
“Your entire note makes Genesis verse 1 a lie.
If Genesis verse 1 is a lie, the account of creation is a lie.”
Could you expand on this please? I THINK I know what you mean, but want to be 100% sure. I am not quite sure how my post makes Genesis 1 a lie. It points out some interesting congruences between the Word and reality as we see it.
I like your phrasing of the alternatives - by man came death or by death came man - elegant.
But, respectfully, it is not an either/or proposition to me. I firmly believe it is both. Skipping Adam for a second - he is, by definition, a special case - Where did you come from. Or I?
Not the flesh and bone part, any reasonably aware 7 year old knows that, but the part of you that IS you? The bit that both sees and can create beauty, loves without lust, and can wrap itself in the Lord like the child of a loving parent is wrapped in a blanket?
All the good bits, in other words. The bits that seperate you from the beasts of the field. Again, this is more a topic for Genesis 2, but I owe you for failing to respond to you earlier.
Sadly, you are one of the few. Search Bible: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html
The question is, how could this be allowed without an EPA impact study? Just imagine if creation was a gov. project. Today’s gov. would have joined men with men, among other things.
The wages of sin is death. And Jesus promised eternal life. Was it eternal life only in this world? Was it that sin was death only in this world?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.