Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

[boatbums]

Welllllll Thanks for documenting that I did NOT SAY anyone was “ENTIRELY BIBLICAL.” That’s just not a phrase I’m likely to use and certainly not to use casually, thoughtlessly. I don’t even say that of my most beloved pastors over my 65 year life! LOL. And, as hard as I try to be so, I’d probably not even say that about myself. In short, BB, I don’t think you “get it.”

In short, Quix, I don't think you do either. If you noticed at all, I did not attempt to quote you ver batim when I said “entirely biblical” but was saying my view of what you believe about this man. You posted a thread about him! You gave HIS ministry the credit for healing a relative’s wife. What else are people supposed to think other than Copeland is respected by you and you approve of his teaching? You complain often enough about people “nit-picking” your words, then you turn around and do the same thing with mine going so far as accusing me a lying. How I wish you DID get it!

[Quix]

Nope.

I asserted that you didn’t cite me accurately.

There’s a world of DIFFERENCE.

[boatbums]

Doesn’t it get tiring being so chronically wrong about me and what I write?

Doesn't it get more and more curiouser that hardly anyone seems to get it right about you and what you write? It's always them, right?

[Quix]

Who was the only one . . . on these two threads . . .

to admit being wrong?

[Quix]

Never mind.

This is way over any line I care to carry on in the vein of.

Cheers.

[caww]

These anti-Christ teachings are why Kenneth Copeland is not only a fraud but is working for the enemy of mens souls:

“Believers are not to be led by logic,” .... “We are not even to be led by good sense”....... (Kenneth Copeland, The
Force of Faith, 7)

“It wasn’t a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that.”.............. (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Messages by Kenneth Copeland, n.d., audiotape #BCC-19), side 1.)

Copeland claiming Jesus told him.......”It was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross....I accepted, in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.”............ (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.)

“Jesus had to “accept the sin nature of Satan.” ..............(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.)

“Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell”............. (Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.)

“He took upon Himself the nature of Satan. And I’m telling you Jesus is in the middle of that pit. He’s suffering all that there is to suffer, there is no suffering left . . . apart from Him. His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He’s got Him destroyed. But, all of a sudden God started talking.” .........(Kenneth Copeland, Believer’s Voice of Victory (television program), TBN, 21 April 1991.)

I want you to know something -Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh”....... (Kenneth Copeland, “Following the Faith of Abraham 1” (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989, audio tape #01-3001, side 1)

“When that spiritual force comes out it is going to give substance to the image that’s on the inside of you. Aw, that’s that visualization stuff! Aw, that’s that New Age! No, New Age is trying to do this; and they’d get somewhat results out of it because this is spiritual law, brother.” ..........(Kenneth Copeland, Believer’s Voice of Victory (television program), TBN, 28 March 1991.)

“Adam was not subordinate to God.”..... (Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham, Tape #01-3001)

“Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God”...... (Kenneth Copeland, (Ft. Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1980), 24

“When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, ‘I Am,’ I just smile and say, ‘Yes, I Am, too!’” ..........(Kenneth Copeland, “Believer’s Voice of Victory” broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)

“God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you’ve never thought that is because He never said He was one”..........(Kenneth Copeland, “Praise-a-thon”, broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988)

“God is a being that stands somewhere around 6’2, 6’3” ..........(Kenneth Copeland, “Following the Faith of Abraham” tape # 01-3001)

“God is on the outside looking in,” says Copeland. “In order to have any say-so in the earth..the thing don’t belong to Him..., He’s gonna have to be in agreement with a man here.” ...............(Kenneth Copeland, God’s Covenant with Man II (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-4404), side 1.)

[Kandy Atz]

And why are you so quick to blame God for murder? Its almost like you relish the opportunity to impugn your Heavenly Father who says He is love and does not change. If we take Numbers 21:5-7 at face value we have God committing evil. Do we really want to make that accusation?

NOW I ASK YOU TO REACH DOWN DEEP IN YOUR SPIRIT ON THIS - WHAT ACTUALLY CAUSED THE SNAKES TO ATTACK?

Now tell them this: 'As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very things I heard you say. Numbers 14:28 NLT

In our vernacular, God told them they would get whatever they said. Can we agree to that? It was a warning. They were put on notice that their words were stout against the Lord and they would face the consequences of their negative words.

The concept also runs through the Bible as people sin, speak unbelief, act in fear, there are negative consequences. When people obey, talk/act faith, there is blessing. I am sure you've also heard what you sow is what you reap, which is a similar law that runs throughout the Word.

So here we have the entire nation grumbling and prophesying their own doom. They were "snared by their words."

But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? Numbers 21:4-5 NIV

Immediately snakes came, and their words had manifest. Some died. But immediately when they cried out to Moses who interceded for them, God provided the bronze snake on a pole, and all who looked at it lived. Now if God sent the snakes and wanted everyone to die, why was the bronze snake solution given so quickly. Meditate on this for a moment before a knee jerk response.

Instead of digging for scraps, trying to find anything to accuse God of evil, why not look for proof and evidence that proves that God is good? That He does not change? I guarantee you will see a whole lot more evidence of God's love and grace than any evil.

Jesus said that he did the works of his Father. And that if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Did Jesus ever kill anyone, or make anyone sick? It almost seems like a totally different God in the OT compared to the New. But I thought God does NOT change?

So now we have a quandary. If Jesus is God who changes not, then just maybe the writers or possibly translators in the Old Testament missed it. Maybe instead of sent, it should be allowed? Maybe the OT writers saw God differently as us who are blessed with living and knowing God more perfectly through Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I am not saying this definitively, but we do have problem. We have God committing murder and violating His own nature. Are you willing to accept that as truth?

Are you willing to accuse God of being a liar and a murderer?

I'm not willing to make that accusation. If God says He is love and changes not, I am going to believe Him. I am going to prayerfully meditate on hard passages when it appears God violates His nature or Word. I am going to trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth and it will agree with the Word that says God is love and changes not. This will make me love and trust God even more, knowing that His Word is solid and cannot be broken, strengthening my faith in Him.

[CynicalBear]

>>Thankfully, my style does seem to help hide a number of pearls and gems like Christ’s parables did 2,000 years ago from similar mentalities.<<

You have got to be kidding. I know Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is a friend of mine. You are no Jesus Christ.

[metmom]

Given that you don’t seem thrilled with Kenneth’s interpretation of such a Scripture: Please give us YOUR interpretation.

John 10:33-35 King James Version (KJV) 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

That passage in no way supports the claim that Jesus never claimed to be God. If you are not rebuking that IMMEDIATELY, but rather defending Copeland's statement, you are being deceived.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:6-10 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Matthew 1:22-23 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

[metmom]

Are you going to actually answer bb’s questions?

[metmom]

And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing - child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?

If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.

OK, since it seems that you did not see my post as you never responded to it, here it is again for your consideration. Perhaps you could answer these questions this time around......

In addition, this is thrown out for consideration and answer from others who support your position on healing and God.

OK. I've been anointed with oil and prayed for by elders according to James, and been anointed with oil and prayed for by faith healers time without count.

Tell me. If God wants to desperately to heal us. Why doesn't He? Why am I NOT healed when I ask in faith according to Scriptural directive?

And I don't want to hear any garbage about the amount of my faith. Jesus healed lots of people who didn't even know who He was.

God is not a weak God that He can't do it in spite of the size of my faith or the faith of the person asking. All anyone needs is faith the size of a grain of mustard seed.

So tell me, if healing is so God's will for us, why are so many people sick? And why am I not healed?

And what do you call martyrdom of believers? By your reasoning, God could be charged with child abuse from Stephen on. It's not just sickness. It's any unpleasant situation.

[Rightly Biased]

I know missionaries that have been in Brazil that preached in english and the hearers heard the words in Brazillian Portuguese and were saved.

God works in ways we do not understand

thanks for the post Quix

I enjoy reading your thoughts.

[cornfedcowboy]

She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

---

I believe a person can be healed in the name of Jesus Christ.
That being said, I do not believe a doctor will claim that he is “never wrong”. Also, doctors cannot really declare that a person is free of cancer because it is impossible to check each cell at the molecular level. Doctors give credence to being cancer free after many years of absence of discovered cancer cell.

[metmom]

And why are you so quick to blame God for murder?

Ananias and Sapphira.

What about the Flood? Who sent that?

God cannot murder or be charged with murder because as our creator He has the right to decide when our earthly life is over.

Since many people are going to experience the second death when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, by your reasoning, God is a murderer.

NOW I ASK YOU TO REACH DOWN DEEP IN YOUR SPIRIT ON THIS - WHAT ACTUALLY CAUSED THE SNAKES TO ATTACK?

WRONG answer. You do not look *deep down within your spirit* for answers. You look at Scripture.

If you are looking within, you are being deceived and will be deceived because the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked. Truth can only be found in God's word, not within our hearts.

[metmom]

There was a man in our church who had cancer and got *healed* from it and everybody was rejoicing over it.

He died from it a few months later.

[smvoice]

Quix, why are you so "thankful" that your "style" "does seem to help hide a number of pearls and gems like Christ's parables did..."??

We are "ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor. 5:20,21.

What good are your "pearls" of "parables" when God has commissioned us to preach the gospel?

[presently no screen name]

and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues I am disgusted by some of the posters on this thread who claim to be believers yet are twisting scripture, focusing on minutae, attacking people’s faith because they don’t speak in tongues or have an illness.

Can you point out the posts here where there are attacks on those who don't speak in tongues? So far all I've seen HERE is one being attacked because they DO. And who insulted/attacked you because you do not speak in tongues? Was it here or elsewhere?

I ask because in all my years I have never even heard the term 'seek after tongues' or anyone being attacked/insulted because of it - either way. It just does not exist in the real world. I have no idea what circles you/anyone else live in - I never heard the term/or heard anyone attacked for it - until I came here. Along with the term DEMAND miracles. Sounds to me someone is either making it up or they surround themselves with a bunch of nosy bodies. How would anyone know if someone else speaks in tongues unless they ask?

What I have seen, and only here, is one being attacked/insulted because they DO, not don't. IMO, if one does or doesn't, it doesn't matter - what's the ruckus about? Not sure why some are concerned what others do/don't do. Everyone comparing themselves among themselves.

"We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise". 2 Cor 10:12

[Quix]

WOW. Shocking.

Wonderfully surprising non-sequitur. Congrats.

[Quix]

I’m beginning to think we aren’t on the same planet and certainly not speaking the same language.

And I’m NOT even typing ‘in tongues.’

[Quix]

The assumption that I’m going to go around and around the same junk and/or the same absurdities as before

is a wrong assumption.

I may be flawed but I’m NOT so dumb as to think that the 151st time will be less futile than the other 150 times.