Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

[caww]

Quix...that was Cynicalbears comment. I was simply showing you that you had overlooked it when you claimed it wasn’t responded to when in fact it was .

[presently no screen name]

You know what’s funny. I heard about 3 or 4 sentences about Lake and finally got his book and haven’t read it since I got two or three years ago. Just those sentences I heard is enough it seems.

And thanks for the link and reminder. I still haven’t listened to him.

[Quix]

Yes, that was

sort of

a response to a Scripture I’d posted.

Was it a fair-minded robust discussion of that Scripture?

Not by a long shot.

[caww]

Was it a fair-minded robust discussion of that Scripture?....Not by a long shot.

Well what do you expect Quix? The many times people engage you in discussion it's not long before you lash out and get snarky. As I said it doesn't invite discussion ...."Not by a long shot".....

Keep in mind your very article start was full of that stuff...before there was even any discussion...thus you set the tempo....so any chance for discussion at length you nipped in the bud from the get go.

[metmom]

One last point. Last time I checked, God understands English and every other language. We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.

Preach it, sister!!!

backatcha.....

[Quix]

Interesting.

Y'all come onto the other thread with guns blazing from y'all's first posts . . .

and similarly probably on every other thread the topic has come up on.

The hostility is ALWAYS THERE in spades with great haughtiness, self-righteousness, prissiness etc. etc. etc. to the max.

Yet it's always the fault of those few of us who support Paul's Scriptures on the matter that 'tarnishes' the 'discussion.'

.

If y'all think I'm going to be all wimpy and milque toasty sweetness and shallow light on the topic, that'll be a long wait.

[caww]

I'd guesstimate that NOT A SINGLE NAYSAYER ON THIS THREAD HAS CHECKED KENNETH COPELAND'S MINISTRY OR HIM PERSONALLY OR HIS STAFF TO SEE IF he's recanted any of his foolish statements, or not........And, I am also fairly certain that every last naysayer on this thread would be terminally embarrassed

First Quix, there is no need to retrace Copelands ministry with his staff or anything which he claims...he has a history of tripping up time and again so it's no news if he attempts to backtrack when he does get called out on it. However generally he simply enlarges his position with more false teaching.

So I'd differ greatly with your post.... Kenneth Copelands ministry remains as it basically always has been....with the exception of adding more and more false teaching to his teachings... Which was expected and follows suite for those like him.

So no..there wouldn't be any, who track these false teachers, who would be embarrassed. Rather they would hope Copeland would see his many grave errors and repent as he needs to do.

[boatbums]

Their own words were their downfall as they decreed that they would die and snakes came and bit them (BTW - God did NOT send the snakes). It was their words that brought judgement.

Numbers 21:5-7
And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

It should NOT be necessary to "embellish" (AKA, lie) about what God says in Scripture. Seriously meditate on that.

[roamer_1]

Whoops! hit the 'send' too early... allow me another shot at that last one:

Again you are reading much more into that verse than what is there. What you claim is not what is stated.

Then break it down for me... tell me what it does say. What I get out of it is that the wicked will look for a sign and find nothing except the sign of Jonah (three days and three nights)

This is exactly the kind of thing that I object to among some Charismatics. They create this spiritual hobby around tongues and place it on a much higher plane than the other gifts when Paul himself places it lower than the other gifts.

I didn't take up the verse to defend tongues at all - except to question your interpretation thereof which is to say that WE (all of us) should not seek after signs. It certainly doesn't say that. If that is what it says, then all of the prophets are for naught.

I’m ambivalent on tongues other than what I have seen and the results of those who focus on it and in that way I see it as leading people to sin rather than to praise God.

I am as well - albeit that I seem to have a broader experience than you. At least a different one. Those that I know who speak in tongues would probably attest that one cannot even get to a spiritual filling (which is needful for true tongues) without being on the humility plane, and all caught up on confessing... I don't see anything in the charismatic folks that isn't in the general breadth of Christianity (which is what I was pointing to). Theres good bad and ugly pretty much everywhere.

I’m for moderation in all things, and sadly, this thread is proof that some Charismatics are not being moderate in their assertions relating to tongues.

That is somewhat to be expected... I don't think most folks understand how Pentecostals are treated here and elsewhere. One can only be treated as the redheaded stepchild for so long...

I generally avoid these threads, and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues and do not believe any Christian should as well as pointing out that people are putting a televangelist on a pedestal whose teachings are not biblical in at least some areas.

I am sorry you feel that way, and I hope I have not contributed to that feeling. If I did, I didn't mean to. My thing is more about the idea that we are not to look for signs (which I reject outright), and the whole tenor of those who suggest that the gifts have passed on. I didn't mean to pick on you. :)

[Quix]

Ahhhhhhhh

sooooooooo

Brittle sensibilities about how WRONG GOD AND PAUL WERE in I Cor 14

trump Scripture?!?

Got it.

[caww]

it's always the fault of those few of us who support Paul's Scriptures on the matter

Almost right in that yes it's generally those who distort or misrepresent Pauls's scripture and takes them out of context who end up making snarky remarks, posting pictures and various other distractions then that of addressing the scriptures in the context they are written..... which therefore shipwrecks the discussions.

Remember that is exactly why the last thread was locked...and it wasn't by those of us trying hard to help the truth be revealed to those digging in their feet.

[metmom]

Not one word of that says it’s a special prayer language.

The charismatic movement has hijacked the term *in the Spirit* to mean something that is not supported in Scripture.

There is not one piece of evidence that *praying in the Spirit* or *singing in the Spirit* by default means a heavenly *prayer language*. All those verses in 1 Corinthians 14 can be equally applicable if the *tongues* is simply another foreign language, because you know what? I cannot understand any other language on this planet better than I can understand what is referred to as a prayer language.

If I was speaking in French, or Spanish, or Russian, or Chinese, I would not understand what I was saying, it would not edify anyone else around me unless they knew the language, I would be speaking into the air.

There is absolutely ZERO Scriptural support that this *prayer language* is anything other than a known foreign language.

If we’re going to be speaking some heavenly language that angels and God speaks, then we all ought to be speaking Hebrew.

[metmom]

So, WHY do we need a prayer language?

Where did Jesus tell us to pray in it?

[Quix]

People with 2’ diameter 6” thick chips on their shoulders lit up in neon lights

should be

the last ones to whine about folks noticing and brushing up against said chips on the subway.

Sheesh what prissy, hypocritical, harughty self-righteousness.

Color me underwhelmed!

Good to see you posting.

LUB.

Hope the construction etc. is going well.

[caww]

If y'all think I'm going to be all wimpy and milque toasty sweetness and shallow light on the topic, that'll be a long wait.

But you see that's the whole point Quix, you get off on your high horse and people simply stop posting to you...and then you question why they aren't responding. They don't wait...they move on to discussions which "edify" and which are interesting.

[presently no screen name]

praying quietly under my breath in tongues persistently facilitated an insight or line of query from Holy Spirit that brought immediate breakthrough for the clients.

That's our God! At times we have no idea what we need and, of course, what to pray for but the Spirit does. He knows the end from the beginning. And your clients we blessed, also.

"Then God said to him: "Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice,

behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you."

[Quix]

Again . . .

I'd encourage junking that mind reader or at least getting it overhauled.

Doesn't seem like you read the mind of the RM well at all.

You also seem to have forgotten that I had not posted within a few dozen posts of the end of that thread.

However, I'm used to folks distorting reality as much as they distort Scripture.

[metmom]

You have THE WORD like Quix does. And if you think Copeland is a fraud, why are you so concerned what he says. Don't listen/read what he says. Very simple solution to your demands.

And what about all the poor people who are being duped by Copeland? Just let them go on being deceived?

Who cares about them anyway? They don't have to listen to him.

Anyone who claims to speak for God and claims to proclaim the gospel OUGHT to be and come under tremendous scrutiny to protect others from being led astray by them.

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

I admit that some folks in my pervue decades ago tended to be about as prissy about tongues in a haughty self-righteous way as virtually ALL of the naysayers have been in the 40 years since.

In those 40 years, it has virtually ALWAYS been the naysayers who have been prissy, self-righteous, haughty and the tongues speakers who’ve been the most humble, sacrificial, servant-hearted, Biblically knowledgeable and wise.

I hadn’t realized that until your post. Interesting reflection.

Thanks.

[smvoice]

Yes, I was interested in what the tongue defenders have to say, too. Not much, it seems. So, maybe some more "basic" tongue teaching needs to be in order.

"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people: and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:..." 1 Cor. 14:21.

Who is Paul referring to when he states "In the law it is written.."? The Jews, of course. Who is "unto this people"? The Jews, of course.

Who are "them that believe"? "Saying, Go unto this people (Israel) and say, Hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:....Be it known therefore unto you (Israel), that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they (The Gentiles) will hear it." Acts 28:26,28.

Therefore, BUT NOW the "tongues are for a sign, NOT to them that believe (Gentiles), but for them that believe NOT" (The Jews, Israel as a Nation).

If, while God was dealing with Israel as a Nation, tongues were given to Gentiles and the few Jews those who BELIEVED, then what would have happened to those tongues when those who BELIEVED NOT (The nation Israel) were set aside? The tongues, the sign to the Jews, would have been also set aside.

Which is exactly what happened when Israel was blinded and set aside. I've given you Paul's writings during God's dealings with Israel as a nation, then the setting aside of Israel, and I will gladly do it again for a refresher if necessary.

Tongues, today, would be a sign for Jews who believe NOT. But God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today. So, I ask again, what is the purpose for speaking in tongues today? Unless you were a Jew, present at Pentecost, or a Jew, present during the tribulation, God has no need of a "sign" nation. He is forming a Body of Christ. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. And all our blessings are spiritual blessings, in heavenly places, in Christ. Not on this earth. Where we walk by faith, and not by sight.