meanwhile, it’s perfectly believable that:
1. bushes can burn without being scorched
2. the dead can be reanimated
3. people can walk on water
4. people can be cured of blindness by a touch of a hand
5. eating fish on friday means something
6. big funny hats mean you hold higher ‘rank’ in a religion
7. a book pulled together from numerous authors is ‘the word of God’
etc etc
point is, any religion can be attacked, and usually is, by those in another religion. all belief systems are based on ‘faith’ ... which means, no proof
if a group of people enjoy their religion and aren’t hurting anyone else, then what place do you have to denigrate their beliefs? you’re just a bigot and your type doesn’t belong on FR or in America. the founders would have found your ilk as repulsive as those they left in europe
Generally it's true all religions are attacked from others as much as unbelievers and always has been so....but you are mistaken about "proof"....Christianity and Judaism have plenty of evidence supporting their authenticity....mountains of evidence.
One thing that becomes apparent very quickly to those who become Christian is they proclaim the scriptures, which were once difficult to understand, are now very clear to them. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and only when one has Christ within can they see thru the eyes of the author.
Furthermore Christians are called to defend the faith....and to bring down strongholds that set themsleves up against Christ and his finished work...those who don't believe cannot understand this....some things are not going to be revealed as they are to unbelievers and thus they cannot understand.
Generally it's true all religions are attacked from others as much as unbelievers and always has been so....but you are mistaken about "proof"....Christianity and Judaism have plenty of evidence supporting their authenticity....mountains of evidence.
One thing that becomes apparent very quickly to those who become Christian is they proclaim the scriptures, which were once difficult to understand, are now very clear to them. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and only when one has Christ within can they see thru the eyes of the author.
Furthermore Christians are called to defend the faith....and to bring down strongholds that set themsleves up against Christ and his finished work...those who don't believe cannot understand this....some things are not going to be revealed as they are to unbelievers and thus they cannot understand.
Spoken like a true Mormon, or an atheist... or is there a distinction? I looked at LDS carefully years ago because it was being thrust at me and they do have nice big families and seem to have found a wormhole to the 50’s. But, alas, the truth is not to be found anywhere, and even if all religion is fantasy (tis not), there are some that more easily revealed as bogus than others. The serious Mormon who has done a serious investigation of Mormonism does not exist. Therefore they all necessarily live in denial, or benign intellectual neglect. And by the way, big funny hats are cool, so walk that one back.
Spoken like a true Mormon, or an atheist... or is there a distinction? I looked at LDS carefully years ago because it was being thrust at me and they do have nice big families and seem to have found a wormhole to the 50’s. But, alas, the truth is not to be found anywhere, and even if all religion is fantasy (tis not), there are some that more easily revealed as bogus than others. The serious Mormon who has done a serious investigation of Mormonism does not exist. Therefore they all necessarily live in denial, or benign intellectual neglect. And by the way, big funny hats are cool, so walk that one back.
“all belief systems are based on ‘faith’ ... which means, no proof”
That’s not the whole story.
Here are at least some historical, reality based items that validate Judaism/Christianity:
(1) the existence of archeological Israel (i.e. ruins, pottery, etc)
(2) thousands of historical manuscripts verify the authenticity of the items mentioned in #1 (for example, do you “believe” in Julius Caesar, in the sense that he was a real person, etc etc? the same manuscript “proof” for Caesar is multiplied by about 100-fold for the life of Christ
(3) numerous DNA based and linguistic studies coincide with scriptural accounts
(4) Once the veracity of the NT is established, then there are numerous eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection were documented in the four gospels.
(5) Coming to the modern day, real people believing and trusting in the real Christ - have been saved from lives of ruin and disaster.
On to your last point, about your statement:
“you’re just a bigot and your type doesn’t belong on FR or in America. the founders would have found your ilk as repulsive as those they left in europe...”
The lds-org and the muslims precisely do NOT want religious freedom.
If the lds gets an upper hand, I think they will take advantage of their strategic opportunity.
Refer to my tagline. Do you understand it? The lds worldview is incapable of understanding the concept of checks and balances, limited government and separation of powers.
“The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.”
I designed that tagline a while ago, and it applies to the ideologies of:
(A) the lds-org,
(B) islam, and
(C) communism.
At their root, these ALL deny that humans are fallen, sinful creatures.
Enough for now.
Mormons claim to have “restored” that which Christ said would not need to be. That where ever 2 or more gathered, He would be there.
Mormons claim all faiths/Christians are apostate.
Mormons claim title to Christianity solely because they use the name of Christ and a Bible.
Mormons engage in pagan rituals in their temples when the purpose of temples was dispensed with when Christ died on the cross.
Mormon prophets have been shown to be errant, adulterous, lecherous and heretics.
Mormons are unitarians, deny the Trinity.
Mormons believe that god is nothing more than a man who worked his to godhood and that we can all do the same.
Mormons believe that an exalted man (mormon god) is engaged in eternal, polygamous relationships in his personal “heaven”, creating spirit babies to populate his own personal planet.
These are just a few of the tenets Christians take issue with, but they are a pretty good sampling of why Christians object to mormons attempting to claim the title to Christianity.
I’ve not seen anyone attempt to deny mormons the freedom to worship how they want. But if they’re going to drag Christians, the name of God and Christ down, then they should expect resistance and rebuttal from those who disagree with their tenets.
If pointing out the fundamental differences between mormonism (claim to Christianity) and Christianity is denigration, then couldn’t the same be said of mormonism making all of its claims?
They are engaged in denigrating not only Christianity by claiming all of the above and more, but also God and Christ, in direct conflict with Biblical scripture. Do you have any words for the mormons?
If defending God’s Word against the mormon’s belief systems and doctrines is bigotry and denigration, then, by your definition, I guess I qualify as a bigot.
Disclosure: I’m an ex-mormon.
Warning: Mormon-Romneybot.
I find it astounding that on FR of all places someone would have the temerity to label someone a "bigot" who "doesn't belong on FR or in America" for the "crime" of calling attention to the fabrications of one Joseph Smith.
One wonders if your response is part of a secretive campaign to suppress any criticism of Romney and Mormonism?
As for your assertions, you are profoundly mistaken as to the nature of the Judeo-Christian worldview, which in contrast to paganism is rooted in historical events.
You falsely label as "bigots" those who would dare question a sectarian religion which itself claims all other denominations are an "abomination" in God's eyes.
Furthermore, your arrogant assertion that someone who dares expose the inventions of Joseph Smith is "just a bigot and your type doesn’t belong on FR or in America" is not only breathtaking but in itself diametrically opposed to everything FR stands for.
Finally, in parroting the liberal insistence that the Christian Faith is based solely on subjective belief and without any basis in history, you have given the lie to your own FR "about page", where you claim:
i am 100% against anything and everything the left turns out
You would be well-advised to reexamine what you stand for and whether, in fact, you are the one whose beliefs are antithetical to those of FR.
Spoken like a true believing atheist. In the case of the topic of this thread - which apparently wooshed right over the top of your head - is a point where a religious claim can be tested and found to be false.
Your bleats on the other points are worthless as you claim ALL faith is blind faith - I beg to differ. There is no reason for the presence of Christianity if there wasn't an actual, physical resurrection of Jesus - a supernatural act of God. Ignorant bleating about a book 'pulled together' is intellectually dishonest handling of the historically documentable facts that these were the writings of those eyewitnesses to Jesus and his resurrection. Explain to me why they would promulgate a lie to the point of dying for that lie. Just doesn't happen for people in their right minds.
Christianity is a reasonable faith - because it is the most reasonable conclusion from the evidence that exists.
That’s right! Why should anyone denigrate your religion of disregard for English grammar and punctuation rules?!
They don't let their members have any free time or think for tehmselves...they DO hurt people.
I know, I once was one, and they tore up my family when I left.
Yup; them MORMONs are pretty nasty in that regard:
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).
Sweetheart; you've been missing awhile.
We ANTIs no longer listen to you MORMONs when you are being SO judgemental.
Perhaps more empathy with the Whores of Babylon would be in order if you wish to be seen as a stable individual.
You starting your OWN 'extermination order'??
Faith is a reasonable response to evidence.
Plenty of people get on airplanes everyday, even though they don't understand the first thing about lift, drag, thrust and weight. They have examined the evidence and have faith that the plane will get them from point a to point b.
Others know that planes are safer than travel by car. They have been to courses, know a little bit about the principles of flight. And yet they have no faith in that aluminum tube.
1. bushes can burn without being scorched
See 2.
2. the dead can be reanimated
See 3.
3. people can walk on water
See 4.
4. people can be cured of blindness by a touch of a hand
See 7.
5. eating fish on friday means something
Not based on anything in 7
6. big funny hats mean you hold higher ‘rank’ in a religion
Has nothing to do with 7.
7. a book pulled together from numerous authors is ‘the word of God’
How would a book that consists of 66 books that took about 1600 years to write, in 3 languages by about 40 authors be internally consistent throughout? Heck, most FReepers contradict themselves on something over a period of time.
As far as Jesus rising from the dead,
-Why would a new religion in a male dominated culture listen the testimony of women?
-Why did the hostile witnesses admit something happened? -And if something happened, why did the hostile witnesses not produce a body?
-Remember Watergate? The conspirators sang like birds. admitted the plot. Yet to almost a person the disciples died for their beliefs, even though they were separated and gathered no stress from each other.
-There is more documentary evidence, written so close to the events, that to cast doubt about their historical accuracy would cause us to deny that Aristotle, Plato or Caesar ever lived. Those documents are consistent with each other, as well as the rest Scripture.
what you outlined are beliefs, not distortion of facts.
Christianity is a “religion”, there are many faiths within Christianity. Mormonism claims to be the complete “restoration” of Christianity in its entirety, any of us “claiming” to be practicing Christianity are apostates or members of the great and abominable church. Based solely on their printed and orated “evidences”.
Case in point, the Book of Abraham. That one is canon, it’s in the mormon scripture, it was upposedly “interpreted by JS.” No faith involved there. Pray tell, how does a book that claims to be “proof” of some aspect of mormonism and helps establish some of the basis of the mormon faith, get a “pass” in being scrutinized?
If they just laid claim to being mormons, and practicing whatever pagan rituals they wanted without trying to cloak themselves in my faith, I wouldn’t give a damn. But they don’t and they won’t.
I have no obligation to sit idly by while the mormons attempt to tear down the entire concept of the Christian God and Savior Jesus Christ by diminishing his capacity and ominpotent stature.
And the vitriol, slander, wailing and gnashing, childish claims of bigotry that arise from the ignorant, foolish or the deliberate enablers aren’t going to make me either.
Trying to shut us up because you object to our objections. Deny us our rights to speak our minds in opposition to something that is offensive to us. Is that what the founders had in mind when they wrote the 1st Amendment? That freedom of speech is ok as long as it’s not “offensive” to anyone? No rebuttals or refutations to claims and assertions allowed? Quite a reach.
No, it is you and your “ilk”, who are “repulsive”. You would deny me my rights to free speech in the name of protecting the aggressor.
Somethings are taken on faith. But there is also a great deal of evidence for things in the Bible where there is none for the Book of Mormon.
Why do I believe the Bible rather than the Book of Mormon? Simply, there is evidence to support much of the Bible, Judaism and Christianity and there is none for Mormonism. I am a historian with a background in archeology.
For the OT. There are literally TONS of artifacts, that show a material culture, names, dates, places. Jericho has been found, we have coins, the David stelae, pottery, encampments, etc, etc, etc. There are also non-biblical sources that mention (and thus verify) names and places in the Bible.
For the NT. There is non-biblical documentary evidence (some even hostile to Christianity) and archeological evidence that confirm the existence of Jesus, the early attacks on Christians, the policies of the Roman Empire, names of early church leaders,coins, the state of the Jewish nation during the NT period, the existence and burial of Caiaphas, graffiti from early Christians and those opposed to Christianity.
Why trust the text of the Bible? There are thousands of manuscripts that show both the OT and NT were transmitted and translated faitfully. The Dead Sea Scrolls showed that as well. The simple fact that such a diverse collection of documents from various dates and authors have been so completely and purely preserved reinforces my belief that the Bible is the word of God.
Now, lets look at Mormonism and the Book of Mormon....is there ANY archeological or documentary evidence to support the Book of Mormon? NONE. Not a coin, not a potsherd, not a city, not a weapon, not a single documentary reference. Regarding Smith, there is documentary evidence that proves Smith was lying (the PGP papyrus among others) and that he plagiarized the Book of Mormon (anachronisms, texual errors, other manuscripts he had access to). There are conflicts in his accounts and a history of the Mormon church covering up things.
So, Mormons are an entirely different group and as a Christian I will not stand by and let them claim to be Christians while insulting my God and my faith.
Before you keep harping on me, why don’t you attack Mormons for their attacks on others. The entire basis of their religion is attacking and namecalling all Non-Mormons (even Jews). They send out 50,000 missionaries every year just to knock on doors and attack their faith. They focus on Christians not non-Christians. So, put your money where your mouth is and call them unamerican.
No church should ever lie to its members. That I object to.
You seem to miss that Mormons DO hurt people through their beliefs. Families torn apart because their ‘bishop’ told them to divorce an inactive member (which is why I think the Powell girl was murdered), the leadership lying to them about everything, leading them to believe things that are unbiblical, the suicide rates and depression among the LDS becuase of their pressure to be ‘perfect’, the lack of social support, etc.
I do what I do to warn others about the dangers of Mormonism (having fallen for their lies as a teenager) and to help them out of Mormonism. That isn’t bigotry, that is love. Freedom of Religion works both ways, I have never said they can’t practice their religion, but I have the same freedom to counter their religion and speak out against it. Your desire to stop my freedom of speech and freedom of religion doesn’t belong on FR or in America.