Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:

"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."

Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.

Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.

In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.

My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!

“Is the world moving toward a NWO, one world government, one world religion, one world economy?”

Answer:

There is no way that anyone can be regenerated outside of Jesus Christ. It is impossible. Man has tried many ‘isms’ and they are all failures.

The main reason why things are getting worse, however, is because Christians have given up. Why have they given up?

Because too many Christians believe and teach that we are in the ‘End Times’. Show me a Christian who actually believes that we are in the terminal generation (or very close), and I’ll show you a Christian that is a defeatist and an escapist.

Dispensationalists have actually played right into the NWO’s hand. Their propaganda mills have worked overtime to defeat the once Victorious Church with such nonsense as the Scofield and Ryrie bibles, The Late Great Planet Earth, Left Behind, etc.

Now, like sheep being led to the slaughter, they tell of Armageddon ‘right around the corner’. These tranquilized zombies now submit to the ‘End Times’ because ‘God wills it’ as they say from their deranged view of Scripture.

Christian ... one thing should be clear about God’s Word.

Jesus did not come to slaughter the world. Rather, He came to redeem mankind from his sin!!!

Get a backbone. Stand up like a Victorious Christian and advance the Kingdom forward.

Get rid of your dispensational defeatism and ‘rapture’ escapism. Otherwise, you will only hand this Nation over to the atheists without a fight.

“the people of the prince to come were primarily troops from regions in the middle east, not Rome (See Josephus).”

Answer:

Josephus is not an inspired writer of the Scriptures. His opinion is no better than the man in the moon.

“making him the future antichrist”

Answer:

Antichrist appears in the Scriptures in four verses, all of which are in 1 and 2 John. In those verses we read that antichrist was clearly PRESENT in John’s day (1st century).

So, this ‘future antichrist’ business is not in accordance with Saint John’s letters.

“in the rebuilt JErusalem temple”

Answer:

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of a rebuilt temple, other than the one that was to be re-built in Nehemiah ad Ezra’s day. that was fulfilled and completed in the 5th century BC.

Since that temple was completely destroyed in 70 AD, there is no more temples in prophecy. None. End of story.

P.S. Dispensatinalists are good at ‘Re-theology’. A re-built temple, a re-vived Roman Empire, etc. They find themselves re-creating the first century 2,000 years later becuase they do not believe Jesus Christ fulfilled anything back at the Cross.

Their denial of Jesus’ fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th Week is proof.

And where do you get the idea that I am an anti-semite? I am from the tribe of Levi my friend.

Anybody who is Dispensational is anti-semitic because their heretical system requires God to kill two-thirds of the Jews by ruthless slaughter. The John Hagee branch of Dispensationalism refuses to evangelize Jews because that cabal feels that keeping the Law is salvific. From a technical and practical standpoint, to be anti-semitic means that one is antagonistic to the descendants of Shem which would include the descendants of Ishamel, son of Abraham. If you honestly look at the rhetoric around here regarding those who are considered descendants of Ishamel, there is an awful lot of hate being spread around by the Dispensationalists.

Then you have the anti-semitism in terms of demanding the Jews go back to a temple/sacrifice worship system. To exclude a whole demographic from the Grace of God is evil.

You claim to be of the tribe of Levi, but it can't be proved - its the internet you can be anybody or anything you want. Nevertheless, there are such as things as self-loathing Jews which I think fit quite well in the anti-semitic category.

If you want your apology, articulate exactly what the problem is, where the claim is incorrect, and how somehow you identify with the original statement - otherwise you appear as suffering from a persecution complex.

Dispensationalism embraces anti-semitism treating the ethnic Jews as pawns and puppets.

If we’re walking in Christ as we ought, then no matter what happens we’re good.

What if you are grading your own tests? Clearly you are thinking that relative Truth is OK with God with your opening statement "we're going to know after the fact who was right"

The Apostle Paul felt that doctrine was important, so much that in Galatians he writes that he went and corrected the first Pope ;)

Personally, I’d PREFER the pre-trib rapture scenario. Sounds like the most fun. But what I want does not dictate God’s actions.

Well, the campfire stories sound like fun, unless, of course you are "Left Behind"

The problem with that sentiment, and I don't want to offend you here as I am convinced that you "walking in Christ", is that the Pre-trib rapture presupposes a future Tribulation and invents a "rapture" when the Parable of the Wheat and Tares says exactly the opposite.

Furthermore, and I think most important, is that it makes the entire body of prophetic literature irrelevant to the entire Church Age. If you are engaged in a cosmic rave of seven years, why do you care now about any "two witnesses" or any increase in earthquakes and battles?

A pre-trib rapture mentality, as has been stated by more articulate Freepers than me, facilitates a temporary mindset in a very bad sort of way. Why pursue a doctorate or invest long term for the Kingdom if the return of Christ is predicated on some troop movement in northeastern Iran which could happen tomorrow?

A realized millennial view makes the prophetic literature relevant to every generation, in that we don't have to wait for a future victory, we are victors now in Christ.

Will things get worse and worse? Unlike the Post-mils, I am pessimistic about the future, yet unlike the Pre-Mils, I'm not secretly hoping for the "birth pains" increase so that we can conveniently bug out now and leave our crappy jobs and tired lives behind.

Try reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs, and then ask yourself, why we think things now are worse than then, so much so that the "rapture" will happen this next year but somehow wasn't bad enough to warrant His return then.

The passage in 2 Peter 3:9, which when understood under the context of the scope of the "us" says that the LORD will indeed return when the Last of the Elect is Redeemed.

You want to hasten the return of the LORD? Then follow the command to "Go" and make disciples of all men of every nation.

So let me replace your hope for a life-shortening pre-trib rapture with this thought:

Eccl 9:7-10 Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works. Let your garments always be white, And let your head lack no oil. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

You are a nut. And make so many assumptions about what I have said. I am descended from one of the tribes of Israel. And since you have taken the step of calling me a liar, you know nothing of grace or truth. if you did you would stop condescending to others and make your point without accusation. The true Christian seeks to instruct and help other Christians as well as learn. Not to tear them down. Trolls do that. And again you fit the bill there.

But since you know it all you are beyond help. And are simply mean spirited.

The Bible teaches us to avoid angry people and you certainly are one of them.

And also understand that I am without question a supporter of Israel and the Jews and their right to exist in their own homeland. And that they are a special people they are the apple of God's eye and that God will keep his word in relation to Israel, because he gave his word to Abraham. To say that I desire anyone to be slaughtered or harmed indicates you are masochist of the highest order. As well as knowing nothing of what I believe

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people of any kind at any time are beyond grace (salvation through Christ) with the exception of those that have taken the mark. Regardless of what I or you may believe about the Bible.

Learn some long-suffering my friend maybe more people would listen to your rantings. You call dispensationalists haters? Buddy you are working for them I think. Who can see through the fortress of hate and accusations you have built?

Yep even if you could prove your point with quotes of scripture perfectly, I have no desire to listen to you at this point you have burned that bridge completely.

I will rely on the grace through faith in Jesus and that and only that is what I or anyone really needs. You have some need to die on this hill of Bible prophecy. I am not interested in doing that. I am interested only in spreading the Gospel so that others may be saved and so should you.

Good night to you and goodbye...

Rapture theology does indeed appear to play to a sort of longing to escape the travails of this life while lording it over those who are left behind to suffer. There’s a longing for the end of life’s sufferings in all of that. There’s something unhealthy about a continual fascination (to the exclusion of much else) with the end of the world, and a flight into a fanciful and completely novel reading of ancient texts. It’s a sort of flirtation with death, really.

Oh that's just nonesense....scripture tells us that even creation longs to be released from the consequences of the fall...and that's not about any sort of "flirtation with death". Christians are certainly looking forward to His coming...(Aren't you)...and seeing our Lord face to face. But regardless of ones views on this I think Christians who love the Lord also see the urgency of taking the gospel message to the lost before it's too late...and as things line up for the rapture all the more. It isn't about "us" it's about all we want to see go with us when that time comes.

First . . . I'd like to share an interesting paradoxical set of feelings walking down the hall to the shower after reading your post.

Usually, I'm a bit thrilled to see a HarleyD ping to me. I hold several of you Calvinist types in high regard as Christian Brothers and as intellects--Dr E, too. So, I usually expect at least an above average post with more meat than usual--more substance and meaningfulness to sink my teeth into, so to speak.

I felt really let down after reading your post. Then I felt sad. I did not expect such a weak response. Oh, it's not that I believe there CAN be greatly more substance etc. than you offered--but somehow, nevertheless, I still expected more from YOU! LOL.

And I felt saddened that it wasn't there. It's not that I was sad you didn't offer more umph against my own perspective. That wasn't it. I'm exceedingly comfortable that my perspective is greatly more Biblical than yours.

No, it was kind of like seeing a twin brother fumble a football pass you thought sure he'd catch. And kind of grieving that he missed it even though he was on the opposing team.

I'm not trying to insult you by calling you a twin brother. I'm just noting the degree of affection I feel for several of you and the odd paradoxical feelings it can trigger in such situations.

Then in the shower, I recalled reading the supposed supremo top theologian of our era . . . a Calvinist etc. . . . and his long treatise on Charismania that I read significant portions of. I was incredulous that he was considered such a lofty scholar in such matters. I thought that the evidence he cited and his reasoning were shallow, cheap and unBiblical. I was embarrassed such a 'great man' had penned such a weak discourse at such length and purporting it to be so lofty in evidence, history, logic etc.

Anyway . . . I don't know what that has to do with anything. But my feelings were fairly intense and I wanted to share them with you.

I'll respond briefly to your post in my next post. I want to reply at greater length but first, I want to compile a set of Scriptures and need to see if anyone has them compiled already.

Thanks for your kind replies and for your measured tone. God's best to you and yours this CHRISTmas season.

Quix quote earlier	HarleyD's Response	Quix's current reply
There are other passages indicating God's DETERMINATION to use ISRAEL as a NATION OF PRIESTS	I wouldn't disagree with that. The issue is who is Israel? Paul stated that believers were Israel. Gal 6:15-16 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.	1. I am still mystified with the seemingly compulsive reflex to turn Scripture on it's head and the grafting in backwards. 2. ISRAEL IS the genetic blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 3. Yes, those accepting Christ as their Savior are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL--THEY ARE NOT REPLACING ISRAEL BY ANY MEANS TO ANY DEGREE! There's NOTHING in any of Paul's writings which indicate that Christians are replacing ISRAEL. None. 4. CHRISTIANS, as it were, are ADOPTED IN to legal, spiritually legal, genetic ISRAEL by FATHER GOD'S GRACE. Period. There's NO REPLACING Israel by The Church. None. 5. Paul speaks entirely of Christians being 'folded into' Abraham's seed, as it were. BY FAITH.

. . . our being GRAFTED INTO the same or similar role to Israel's service as a nation of priests."	What you're saying is that we are part of Israel's priesthood. Are you saying we are grafted in with the Levites? (not all Jews are priests).	1. God declares that Christians are GRAFTED IN; ADOPTED INTO Abraham's seed. 2. That entails, to me, becoming in some sense and degree--probably more or less equal though possibly with different roles--part of ISRAEL'S NATION OF PRIESTS--AS A NATION--to the world and to all Creation. 3. I don't detect in Scripture any big distinction--in terms of the Millenial reign of Christ or after that--between the Levi's and the rest of Israel in terms of priestly duties--EXCEPT, perhaps--some few very specific duties at the TEMPLE's Holy of Holies. Perhaps Uriel 2012 and/or Roamer_1 can enlighten us on their perspectives on that issue. 4. There is little said in Scripture about Christians as part of the Nation of Israel or about genetic Israel as a Nation serving as priests to the world and all Creation. There's cryptic indicators of that--but only cryptic indicators.
Evidently you are forgetting that The LION of JUDAH is JEWISH! LOL.	And you're forgetting that the tribe of Judah were not priests.	1. My point was that Christ is JEWISH. CHRIST carries Christians INTO CHRIST'S genetic Abrahamic seed Family/Nation. 2. You had pointed out earlier that Christ was a priest after the order of Melchizedek vs after the order of Aron & Levi. Are you withdrawing that point? LOL 3. I gather from the cryptic Scriptures that say anything about the Millenial reign priesthood of Israelites & Christians at all--or even hint in that direction--that our genetics won't be an issue regarding our priestly status and service.
It's just that God has His own timing and route for each individual and certainly for the Nation of Israel as to how to get [fully inserted into their National role as priests to the world and all Creation--with Christians incorporated as fully adopted into Abraham's seed.]	I believe I agreed on one of my posts that God raises and lets fall ALL nations. The simple fact that Israel exists shows that it is within His divine purpose. And there may be tribulations. But that does not mean that He blesses them any more than He blesses anyone else.	1. Sorry, HarleyD--that's just unmitigated UNBiblical nonsense. I have posted Scriptures clearly nuking such assertions most emphatically. Y'all arbitrarily discount them as not applying due to some mystifying gah-gah mis-interpretation of Paul's writings OR some mystifying willfully blind bias. It's hard to fathom. 2. Nevertheless, I hope to compile at least 50% and as close to 100% of the many verses indicating such. 3. I do NOT have ANY confidence that any of you will respect the Word of God on such matters sufficiently to learn something. Nevetheless, I want to try and offer the Biblical evidence in one place to at least give folks I care about a chance to learn something 'new' from the Word of God on the matter. 4. When God declares that He WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS ISRAEL AND CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE ISRAEL--HE MEANS IT. He has NOT rescinded that declaration/promise/commitment. You cannot show me a single particle of a single verse of Scripture that indicates otherwise. 5. BTW, IIRC, 75% or so of the Nobel winners are of Israeli genetics. God is not finished blessing the whole world and all creation through genetic Israel.

God's best to you and yours this CHRISTmas season.

Here we are, arguing theology, while between today and the 25th, approximately 23*1,000,000/365) human lives will be snuffed out due to CHOICE.

(And that's just in the United States of America - the Nation we want GOD to bless)

Matthew 2:7-9, 16

7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

One neat thing about puzzle building is the “I do not know where this piece goes” aspect. I do not know means we are empty of our own ideas and preconceived notions as master puzzle builders. The wise are master puzzle builders. Fools do not have a clue about the pieces. God knows where all the pieces go! The only wisdom that matters and is possible to see the completed puzzle is God's wisdom. He gives it to anyone who asks for it with a heart ready because of a broken spirit. He also hides it from the proud. The key is to ask Him for the wisdom and not our common sense.

Proverbs 1:7 (NIV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I cannot wait for my Lord Jesus Christ to show us wise builders the completed puzzle any minute now after the rapture! Also, the only system that makes sense for all of the puzzle is pre trib.

Satan and his PTB minions know the rapture is coming and are expecting and preparing for it! They may even try to nuke Our Lord Jesus Christ LOL!!

A key puzzle piece is knowing “who is Israel”. Again, when we ask God for the wisdom, with our pride in check, he shows us where the pieces go. God told me replacement theology is a lie of satan.

Dispensationalism violates this Scriptural pattern by using an A-B, B-B construct!

There is no such thing as an A-B, B-B construct...

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The Messiah is the Prince...

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

No more Messiah the Prince...He is cut off...

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

New prince...Here's the new prince...

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

These aren't Christians...In fact, there are not any Christians there...They're off somewhere getting married...

I don't see how you could possibly come up with the conclusion you have...Two princes...Easy peasy...

Therefore, according to the New Testament, there is neither Jew nor Greek in Abraham’s seed.

Abraham's seed is Jesus Christ...The only was we can be Abraham's seed is to be 'in Christ'...

It is a Gospel of Grace, not race.

It won't be in Daniel's 70th week...

Unfortunately, you have created a false idol based on man’s DNA, instead of Christ’s Blood.

You obvously have come to a bible debate, unarmed...

My prayer is that you repent of your Dispensational sin.

My prayer is that you will accept Jesus as your Savior and that he will open your eyes to the scripture...

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