Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
You seem to still be trying to apply the passage to personal works for all. I’ll try this one more time.
First of all the entire chapter is talking to and about the leadership or teachers in the church. The responsibility of a teacher or pastor is to teach scripture which strengthens a believer. If a pastor or teacher only teaches milk the “lay people” will not be strong in the faith or founded enough to sustain the temptations or struggles that come to believers and will “fall away” from the faith. That is what “burned up” refers to.
On the other hand, if a pastor or teacher progresses to teaching the “meat” of scripture the people will have a deeper faith and stronger understanding and will more likely stay firm in their belief and have more knowledge to withstand the temptations and struggles that Christians go through.
There are other parables that reinforce that concept. The wheat and tares, the seeds that fall on good ground and bad ground, etc. The chapter starts out talking to the leadership of the church and when it gets to “everyman’s work” Paul is still talking to the leadership. There is no switch in thought pattern anywhere above that verse.
>>Observe, too, that your bizarre reading has the milk-fed believers burned off and the teacher saved; is that consistent with salvation by faith alone<<
Of course it’s consistent. First off the word translated “believeth” is a progressive word. That means that one must continue to believe. Salvation is dependent on continued belief. If that belief is weak, as in milk fed Christians, those people can be convinced that it isn’t real. We see that often and those people can be drawn away from true faith by false teachers or when trouble comes. It would be analogous to you using the word “bizarre” in an attempt to derogatorily put down ones belief. If I wasn’t well versed in scripture rather then just the teachings of men I might be inclined to be intimidated but I’m not. I just see it as an immature attempt to demean rather than stay founded in scripture.
What is the “work” of a leader, teacher, or pastor of a church?
I’m thinking that by that time the realization will have sunk in and horror and despair will replace the hope.
Confidence is good...But nowhere in the scriptures does Jesus promise, or even suggest that he will turn himself into a piece of (unbroken) bread or a bottle of wine...
And nowhere is it suggested that any human should pray to have it done...
But hey, that's just scripture...
Now imagine the kid who goes to his father and says, "Dad, you know and I know that you're going to give me the money I'm asking for after I've argued and begged and promised for a while. So why don;'t you save us both a lot of time and give it to me now?"
Even if he KNOWS, it is indecent to assume, to adopt that attitude.
And conversely, our Father not only didn't require for us to argue for it, and gave it freely, he told us numerous times in the scripture that we are to expect it...It's a done deal...
Our Father even told John to write some scripture so that we would KNOW that we have it all...Right now...
Unlike your religion which pulls a lot of this stuff out of thin air, we rely only on the Bible...And there is scripture after scripture confirming what we believe...
And the logical outcome is they are attracted to a group of human philosophers who no more understand what God says than they do...They rely on their supposed intellectual superiority to explain to their followers what they think God means
Those who want to have an elevated status study what the philosophers have written about each other and about what they think God said instead of going to the scriptures and reading and believing for themselves what God says...
The weird thing is, even if you are correct annalex, your Church is DOOMED by these very verses. Please note:
"According to THE GRACE OF GOD which is GIVEN UNTO ME, as a wise MASTERBUILDER, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another buildeth THEREON. But let every man take heed how he buildeth THEREON. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:10,11.
Just more of Paul's megalomaniacal talk? Or did he indeed lay the foundation of the Grace of God? Of course it was laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ, just as the foundation of the Messianic Church was laid by Peter and the 11, on Jesus Christ. They are both laid with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. But Peter's has to do with a Kingdom of believers. And Paul's has to do with a body of believers, the church the body of Christ. Now here's the interesting part for Catholics.
If Grace is what the Church is being built on today, and some religious organization attempts to build upon this grace foundation with traditions, doctrines of men, Kingdom promises, Kingdom gospels, Kingdom commissions, Kingdom commands, Kingdom works for righteousness, etc., which of those "works" will survive the fire when tried by the gospel of the Grace of God foundation? Answer: NONE. They are built on another foundation, the Kingdom.
You can argue all you want about this. But the simple wording says it all. Paul laid this foundation of grace, built on the risen Christ, through direct revelations of Christ. It was to form the Church the Body of Christ. If any works are performed contrary to this foundation, for this time, they are worthless. Wood, hay, stubble.
Naw, God wants us to be happy on the earth, long before one ends up in the mythical purgatory...
Scripture supporting interpretation of scripture! What a concept!
lol! IMAGINE THAT!
HaHaHa...Blessed Assurance is a sin...
It's gotta be rough going thru life not knowing if you are a child of God...
You guys don't even know if you will make it to your purgatory...
If you are good enough, maybe you will get to heaven...I'm here to tell you, you won't be good enough...I will never be good enough...None of the Apostles were good enough...
No. The "easy believerism" is to just "say this", "do that", "don't do the other", and voila'! God smiles and gives you a thumbs up on your good efforts.
Too many think that our motivations supersede our actions and unfortunately for too many God has become a means to a personal end.
As a I had a Catechist that explained it in very simple terms; that True happiness never came when we put ourselves first, but only when we recognized that JOY is an acronym for Jesus - Others - Yourself.
Similarly, those that relentlessly and even ruthlessly pursue Salvation will find it elusive. The Ignatian imperative must be that we not seek exclusively the Salvation of God, we must seek the God of Salvation. We must not seek the compassion of God, we must seek the God of compassion. We we must not seek God's mercy, we must seek the God of mercy. And we must not the forgiveness of God, we must seek the God of forgiveness. Like Grace, these things are not a wage or a reward, but a gift from God.
Thanks very much for your posts and the several scriptures; wish I’d thought to include them as well.. :)
Do you really expect honest and sincere discourse and discussion with obviously dishonest and insincere people?
Beautiful, NL
“Seek and you shall find”
“Knock and it will be opened to you”
Very good post, thanks. The imperative is very good.
I sometimes wonder what many would answer to the question:
Would you believe in Jesus Christ if you were not rewarded with heaven for doing so?
Who was Jesus speaking to??? Was there a single Christian in the bunch???
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
Where is Jesus coming to in his glory??? He's coming to the earth...To set on a throne, on the earth...That's what Jesus really says about it...
32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
All the nations will be gathered before Jesus, on the earth...That's what Jesus really says...
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Jesus tells the people that are blessed to take their inheritance, which is the Kingdom...They don't get the Kingdom until Jesus sets on the throne, on earth, separating the nations...
If this section applies to you, you are a long way off from the Kingdom...It ain't your religion...That's what Jesus really said...
35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
Who are these guys...Are you one of these guys???
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Well if you are one of the above group, You are NOT one of Jesus' brothers...So who are you...And who are the brothers??? You certainly can't be brothers of the brothers...You can't be both...So who are they??? And who are you???
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
So if you don't feed Jesus' brothers and buy them clothes and visit them in prison, you go to hell...
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
These obviously are people who acknowledge Jesus as Lord but Jesus doesn't acknowledge them... And why's that???
Because these people didn't first look to take care of Jesus' brothers...
So the sheep are non Christians that took care of the Christians (Jesus' brothers) and they were rewarded with eternal life??? Notice they are not taking care of non brothers (Christians?)...
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here.
First, you have to read what Jesus really did say...It's like you condensed the entire episode into, 'Real Christians gain eternal life by doing good works...Fake Christians that don't do good works go to hell...The end'...
Judith, there is so much more in those passages that you clearly never even considered... You aren't any where near close to understanding what Jesus really said...
You can't just skip over the thing and run with it...You have to find out who the brothers are...You have to find out who the sheep and goats are...You need to understand the Kingdom Jesus is referring to...
You have to notice that this takes place in the company of God's chosen people the Jews...There's not a Christian in the whole lot...You must notice that there has not been a crucifixion, and much more...And then, you must:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Now you won't find that command in any Catholic bible...And for good reason...
God didn't make it so simple that all you had to do was read a verse or a group of verses to understand what he really had to say...
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. - James 2:10
Part of the sin of presumption is thinking God must forgive you even if you don’t repent, no matter how big of a jerk you are.
I keep hoping that they aren't so bad, but alas, they are...
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