Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
Domincans v. Jesuits
A young man went to his pastor and said,”I think I may have a call to the religious life, but I can’t decide between the Dominicans and the Jesuits.
The pastor said, “Well, the Dominicans were founded to argue against the Albigensians. The Jesuits were founded to argue against Protestantism.”
The young man said,”But, Father, how can I tell which is the better order?
The pastor said, “Seen any Albigensians lately?”
{Catholic joke.]
Oh oh, now you've done it. You're headed for purgatory first, then eternal damnation.
I think that is right. You hit the nail on the head. I do think we can add to that the promise of God that no one can be snatched from Him. You know in your heart what you feel and you know your desires. If those are truly wanting to know the Lord you can know as the text in my last post showed that you have eternal life. If you then add to that the promise that we can not be snatched away I believe that means “blessed assurance”.
I honestly don’t think you have to say “whatever my fate”. I believe you can know.
Thank you, as always, for your kind comments. What I see as the main problem with this denial (of sorts) of a believer having "blessed assurance" is not so much that no one can know they are going to Heaven but rather that just anyone can know. Sure, I grasp the Catholic idea of specially pious and holy people given assurance by God of their destination, but what usually is that assurance based upon? Their specially pious and holy lives? Or, rather is it based upon their faith and trust in the promises of God who says - repeatedly - that he wants us to KNOW we HAVE eternal life?
I remember hearing all the stories of the "saints" in Catholic "lore" and always getting the impression that I could never be THAT holy or brave or special. We were raised to revere them FOR their exemplary lives but I do not recall even one lesson about how much we could be like them through grace. How a life of faith - pure, simple, child-like faith - could move the mountains like Jesus said. There was too much emphasis on the internal, human-generated holiness and deprivation and not nearly enough on what God can and will do with any of us who submit ourselves completely to him.
SO I think part of our reticence on this matter is more an aesthetic sense than a strict theological sense. It's just TACKY to say, "Oh yeah, I'm cool." We will remain like baby birds squawking with out mouths open for food,and our chief rhetoric will be that of supplication, though we are confident we will not be refused.
I'm sorry, but I just do not get that sense. Not from some here, not from my Mom, and not from what I read in Catholic literature. The reticence, I believe, is very much theological and to equate an assurance of salvation based on faith in the promises of God to a "tacky" self-assured "I'm cool" swagger is a great example of that difference. See, I'm not basing my assurance of salvation on how good I am or how many good deeds I've done for God. If I was, then you have every right to shoot me down off my imagined perch. I don't belong up on one, Jesus does. It is ONLY because of him and what he has done for us through his atoning sacrifice, that we can even BE saved. Not a one of us can count on our efforts of merits, not even Sts. Dominic or Terese. So, that's the real point, not of our works means exactly that and because we are not saved because of works we are not kept saved by them either.
(Hosannah, though a cheer and little else, literally is a plea to be saved.) I'm not saying good or bad. I'm just trying to convey the savor of it. Look: my tears at Corpus Christi are not tears of fear. They are tears of release, of happiness that so great a need in me is met with so overwhelmingly generous a response. It is my part to beg,and His to grant. And I am happy to beg. Poverty is fun.
I am happy that I can trust the giver of life to do what he says he will do. The promises of God are sure and he WILL do what he has promised. I really do not believe he has the slightest desire to hear us beg for redemption. In fact, I believe to do so is an insult to him. Imagine, for a minute, that your beloved wife on the day you asked her to marry you and she accepted, that that night she went home and called you on the phone to plead with you to marry her. Every day you saw her, she got on her knees and begged and pleaded with you to PLEASE marry me. She sent you letters, and postcards with the words, "Please, please marry me!". Be honest now, wouldn't you start to feel a little uneasy about the woman you asked to marry you? "What the heck's wrong with her?", you wonder, "I asked her, she knows I love her, she knows I want to. She knows we will be. What's her problem!".
Can you see my point? Certainly God wants us to come to him in prayer asking in faith for the things we need, but, COME ON, he did not leave us wondering about the most important thing we could ever want to know, "Where am I going when I die?". There's not one book in the whole Bible that doesn't speak about the mercy, love, grace and trustworthiness of our Almighty God. Don't you think on this issue he wants us to HAVE assurance?
Look. Please. Trust me on this if on nothing else.
Get the Sayers Comedy There's another fabulous translation, by Esolen (sp?) but it's rare. I have Paradiso and Purgatorio but the last time I looked Inferno cost over $100. Too rich for my blood.
You have the exuberance of the late Gothic age, with the rediscovery of Greek learning. Dante is careful to get all the astronomical details right.
But even in translation the joy of Purgatory and the luminosity of Heaven are clear.
I don't know if it's still available, but there is a Sinclair edition with Italian and English on facing pages.
Sayers knew her work was being set adrift in a culture largely ignorant of, well, of a great deal. So her notes and introductory essays are very fine introductions to the high Gothic mind-set.
My aunt, Barbara Reynolds did most of the Paradiso, because Sayers was dying. And she did not have Sayers's gifts. But it's still good.
You are obviously of a scholarly temperament. I promise you, you will thank me for urging this. I don't see how anyone can claim to be an educated man and not have read the Commedia. It is a great work. The figure of Beatrice ( do NOT think BEE-triss,think BAY-ah-TREE-chay ) is compelling.
I agree in the main with your points and caveats, however...
In general there are some obvious problems with blessed assurance when coupled with easy believerism - as it often is.
An extreme example to make a point: Say I told you, "Believe there are purple striped carrots and I'll give you a thousand bucks." "I believe," you say. And it's quite possible you did believe it. But how do we quantify "believe." First, did you really believe (enough); did you believe correctly (are the stripes vertical or horizontal) and did you believe with the proper motivation?
If blessed assurance is "believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved now and forever,' well, you get the analogy.
Believe, faith, trust in are all similar, nearly identical in this case. If I say I believe do I really? "the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do." Do I qualify under this?
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Well, certainly not nearly enough, but I believe don't I?
"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Gee, I thought just believing got me in the kingdom.
Then there's the motivation question. if I believe in order to be rewarded, of what value is this? Would I *not* believe if it got me the same reward? Am i marrying for money or for love?
We can easily fool ourselves of our true motivation. And, in the end, who is the judge of this? Me or Christ?
Then there is the problem of the increased tendency toward the sin of presumption that, IMHO, is more likely with blessed assurance/easy believerism.
Finally, if I am assured, have I got God in a box in my pocket? No way He can change his mind about me if I take advantage or forget my proper position or sin boldly without sincere repentance?
I have little doubt there are saints with assurance as you mention; but, the bulk application of blessed assurance/easy believerism to every Christian?… don't think that's good exegesis, theology or good practice. Certainly at least when compared to increasing in love, doing our very best to follow jesus in that love - while repenting our failings and praying for His mercy.
MHO, FWIW.
Thanks as always for your posts.
The motivation for faith is based on seeing my need for redemption and accepting the solution to my need from God. The first step is ALWAYS the understanding of my sinfulness and the reality of a just and holy God who will not look upon sin. That is where the grace of God comes in. He knows my need and, in his mercy, provides a way in which I can be cleansed of my sin. He has already set down a rule that without death - the shedding of blood - there can be no remission of sin. He provided, for a time, a temporary covering of sin by the blood of animals - as an object lesson of the severity of sin. He then, as promised, took on human flesh and made the satisfactory payment of blood, himself. He then offers the benefit of that - atonement - to all who would accept his gift of grace through faith.
But he didn't stop there. Whenever someone honestly surrenders to God in faith and accepts his gift of eternal life, he also comes to indwell the believer with his own Spirit. We are given a new nature, born from above, and the old nature, which was a slave to sin, no longer has reign within our hearts. The person who is a child of God through this new birth, WILL be changed and, although salvation is granted by faith alone, it is not a faith which is alone - good works result from a changed heart and that is how the world can know we are truly His. The remaining time we are given on earth after this rebirth is spent in growing in grace, learning holiness, being conformed into the image of Christ. Though the old nature is no longer in charge, those who have not learned the way of God will be disciplined by our Heavenly Father who will work in us to bring us into the full realization of being sons and daughters of the Most High.
Finally, if I am assured, have I got God in a box in my pocket? No way He can change his mind about me if I take advantage or forget my proper position or sin boldly without sincere repentance? I have little doubt there are saints with assurance as you mention; but, the bulk application of blessed assurance/easy believerism to every Christian?… don't think that's good exegesis, theology or good practice. Certainly at least when compared to increasing in love, doing our very best to follow jesus in that love - while repenting our failings and praying for His mercy.
Although we don't "have God in a box", once we are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, God will never "change his mind" about us. The Spirit was given as a down payment of our inheritance and we are sealed with him until that day. God holds onto us, we don't hold onto God. We are in his hand and no one can pluck us out. He will not lose a one nor cast anyone out for any reason. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. It is not a matter of "easy believerism" - which is an awful way to speak of the grace of God - and it is not simply a "head" knowledge that makes faith real. It is a surrendering to God, admitting that I cannot save myself and I fall upon his mercy seat of grace pleading the blood of Christ as my only sacrifice for my sin. I cannot ever be perfect - yet God gives me HIS perfection through Christ.
I know where this reservedness comes from, it is fear that people will have no control over themselves when they understand they can go to heaven by grace through faith. Fear that such a freedom in Christ will release the baseness of human nature. But that is completely wrong, the old nature has been overcome by a new, spiritual man and, through the indwelling Spirit, a person is made whole, changed by grace, love and mercy. A person who claims to have made a choice for Christ, but has no demonstration of it in his life, is proven himself that he has a dead faith - it is not a living faith which produces no conscious desire to do the works God has prepared for us to do. BUT, we are not saved by those works - they are proof of a saving faith.
I'm sure we all know people who claim to be Christians, but their lives give no evidence of it. The answer is not to convince them that they MUST do works to be saved, but rather, explain again, teach again, share again the true good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and just exactly what it means to be a believer. For someone to go through the motions of doing good deeds but without saving faith is exactly those people Jesus spoke about who on the last day he would tell he never knew them. Those people are NOT the ones who refused to believe - they call him Lord - but they were relying on their "many wonderful works" they did to earn them eternal life. This gift only comes by faith in the grace of God who gives us eternal life through Christ, not our works.
I know it's late, but if you're still up I hope you have a good night.
I suggest you look at that scripture again, to remind yourself of what Christ Jesus really said, not how you choose to twist it. Matthew 25:30-50 31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here.
I suggest you look at that scripture again, to remind yourself of what Christ Jesus really said, not how you choose to twist it.
Matthew 25:30-50 31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here. It was what they did or didn't do that made the difference.
Here’s another one:
James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
What about the parable of talents?
Matthew 25:14
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What does that parable mean to you?
Tougher opposition!
LOL!
Fr.Jacek's repeatedly saying,"It's all about the personal encounter with Christ" is my lodestar here. YES, we all know Catholics who have a book-keeping attitude about "getting into heaven," and in Mississippi I met young Baptists whose idea of blessed assurance was, "I'm in, no matter what. Let's party!" And I know Catholics who seem to have an idea that the only correct attitude is one of a kind of shamefaced paranoia.
Religion, viewed sociologically and psychologically, provides a great ink-blot on which people can project their own material and a spacious arena in which their pathologies can be acted out. When I was a hospital chaplain every once in a while I'd be summoned to the psych ward. I was struck with how patients glommed onto me, in my collar and all, and how many were voluble in their strange religious discourse. But I didn't conclude that Jesus was a fraud.
I suggest that few teachings are so perfect that no one can get them wrong. Few pious practices ditto. I'm a big fan of the Rosary, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who do just what some non-Catholics say we all do -- rattle it off and mark it down on the tally sheet. And among the poison-handling snake-drinkers I am confident there are some real wackos but also some whose hearts have been touched and in whom the true flame burns.
So I think that maybe "can it be perverted?" is not a good standard. As I like to say "Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds."
This is kind of a superficial response,and I apologize. I hope to savor all your remarks today, but my assignment for RCIA tonight is to explain in 15 minutes why we should give a darn about the Bible and in another 15 minutes to talk about being fallen and particular sins. Pray for me.
Oh, one after-thought. Our theology rightly (and I think we do okay with this on FR) addresses not only what we are saved FROM but what we are saved TO. The FIRST motivation for faith may be "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" -- the stick. But there is also the carrot, and I think as the finish line approaches, we look less behind and more ahead to the prize -- that sight the seeing of which will make us glad forever.
But yet as a Catholic, you pray to people whom you have no idea whether they are in heaven or hell...And as a Catholic you count on these people to take your prayers to God, or Mary or someone...
And that makes sense to you???
It is fine to change topic and chat around, but not as a debate tactic. Typically, a professional Protestant, unable to justify his positions from the scripture, will switch the conversatin to something else in order to appear holding his ground. These tricks should be detected and thwarted.
Observe, too, that your bizarre reading has the milk-fed believers burned off and the teacher saved; is that consistent with salvation by faith alone, which you probably hold, or even elementary justice?
The question is, where does the Scripture teach purgatiory as a place of final purification of a saved believer? I gave the answer and you agreed "in essence". Like in any question, multiple interpretations of an allegorical passage exist; that does not change the answer.
2nd coming, not commencing at death
This reading is possible, but not the only possible. The passage simply says that the man is tested according to his works and that the Day of the Lord shall make the results of the test manifest. It does not say that the testing itself occurs at the second coming.
not one's own character defects which gains him entrance into glory, but the fruit of such
This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.
that of converts
The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"
You write as though you know all about me.
Yet you don’t even know me.
Does that make sense to you?
Perhaps there’s no harm after all in letting them think that there’s a purgatory.
After all, when someone is burning in hell for eternity, it’d be nice for them to think that it’s really purgatory and that some day it will all be over.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.