Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: D-fendr; Mad Dawg
Then there's the motivation question. if I believe in order to be rewarded, of what value is this? Would I *not* believe if it got me the same reward? Am i marrying for money or for love?

The motivation for faith is based on seeing my need for redemption and accepting the solution to my need from God. The first step is ALWAYS the understanding of my sinfulness and the reality of a just and holy God who will not look upon sin. That is where the grace of God comes in. He knows my need and, in his mercy, provides a way in which I can be cleansed of my sin. He has already set down a rule that without death - the shedding of blood - there can be no remission of sin. He provided, for a time, a temporary covering of sin by the blood of animals - as an object lesson of the severity of sin. He then, as promised, took on human flesh and made the satisfactory payment of blood, himself. He then offers the benefit of that - atonement - to all who would accept his gift of grace through faith.

But he didn't stop there. Whenever someone honestly surrenders to God in faith and accepts his gift of eternal life, he also comes to indwell the believer with his own Spirit. We are given a new nature, born from above, and the old nature, which was a slave to sin, no longer has reign within our hearts. The person who is a child of God through this new birth, WILL be changed and, although salvation is granted by faith alone, it is not a faith which is alone - good works result from a changed heart and that is how the world can know we are truly His. The remaining time we are given on earth after this rebirth is spent in growing in grace, learning holiness, being conformed into the image of Christ. Though the old nature is no longer in charge, those who have not learned the way of God will be disciplined by our Heavenly Father who will work in us to bring us into the full realization of being sons and daughters of the Most High.

Finally, if I am assured, have I got God in a box in my pocket? No way He can change his mind about me if I take advantage or forget my proper position or sin boldly without sincere repentance? I have little doubt there are saints with assurance as you mention; but, the bulk application of blessed assurance/easy believerism to every Christian?… don't think that's good exegesis, theology or good practice. Certainly at least when compared to increasing in love, doing our very best to follow jesus in that love - while repenting our failings and praying for His mercy.

Although we don't "have God in a box", once we are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, God will never "change his mind" about us. The Spirit was given as a down payment of our inheritance and we are sealed with him until that day. God holds onto us, we don't hold onto God. We are in his hand and no one can pluck us out. He will not lose a one nor cast anyone out for any reason. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. It is not a matter of "easy believerism" - which is an awful way to speak of the grace of God - and it is not simply a "head" knowledge that makes faith real. It is a surrendering to God, admitting that I cannot save myself and I fall upon his mercy seat of grace pleading the blood of Christ as my only sacrifice for my sin. I cannot ever be perfect - yet God gives me HIS perfection through Christ.

I know where this reservedness comes from, it is fear that people will have no control over themselves when they understand they can go to heaven by grace through faith. Fear that such a freedom in Christ will release the baseness of human nature. But that is completely wrong, the old nature has been overcome by a new, spiritual man and, through the indwelling Spirit, a person is made whole, changed by grace, love and mercy. A person who claims to have made a choice for Christ, but has no demonstration of it in his life, is proven himself that he has a dead faith - it is not a living faith which produces no conscious desire to do the works God has prepared for us to do. BUT, we are not saved by those works - they are proof of a saving faith.

I'm sure we all know people who claim to be Christians, but their lives give no evidence of it. The answer is not to convince them that they MUST do works to be saved, but rather, explain again, teach again, share again the true good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and just exactly what it means to be a believer. For someone to go through the motions of doing good deeds but without saving faith is exactly those people Jesus spoke about who on the last day he would tell he never knew them. Those people are NOT the ones who refused to believe - they call him Lord - but they were relying on their "many wonderful works" they did to earn them eternal life. This gift only comes by faith in the grace of God who gives us eternal life through Christ, not our works.

I know it's late, but if you're still up I hope you have a good night.

447 posted on 10/25/2011 11:00:29 PM PDT by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 446 | View Replies ]


To: boatbums
piThose people are NOT the ones who refused to believe - they call him Lord - but they were relying on their "many wonderful works" they did to earn them eternal life. This gift only comes by faith in the grace of God who gives us eternal life through Christ, not our works.

I suggest you look at that scripture again, to remind yourself of what Christ Jesus really said, not how you choose to twist it. Matthew 25:30-50 31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here.

448 posted on 10/26/2011 12:53:17 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 447 | View Replies ]

To: boatbums
Those people are NOT the ones who refused to believe - they call him Lord - but they were relying on their "many wonderful works" they did to earn them eternal life. This gift only comes by faith in the grace of God who gives us eternal life through Christ, not our works.

I suggest you look at that scripture again, to remind yourself of what Christ Jesus really said, not how you choose to twist it.

Matthew 25:30-50 31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here. It was what they did or didn't do that made the difference.

449 posted on 10/26/2011 12:58:45 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 447 | View Replies ]

To: boatbums; D-fendr
Thank you to both of you.

Fr.Jacek's repeatedly saying,"It's all about the personal encounter with Christ" is my lodestar here. YES, we all know Catholics who have a book-keeping attitude about "getting into heaven," and in Mississippi I met young Baptists whose idea of blessed assurance was, "I'm in, no matter what. Let's party!" And I know Catholics who seem to have an idea that the only correct attitude is one of a kind of shamefaced paranoia.

Religion, viewed sociologically and psychologically, provides a great ink-blot on which people can project their own material and a spacious arena in which their pathologies can be acted out. When I was a hospital chaplain every once in a while I'd be summoned to the psych ward. I was struck with how patients glommed onto me, in my collar and all, and how many were voluble in their strange religious discourse. But I didn't conclude that Jesus was a fraud.

I suggest that few teachings are so perfect that no one can get them wrong. Few pious practices ditto. I'm a big fan of the Rosary, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who do just what some non-Catholics say we all do -- rattle it off and mark it down on the tally sheet. And among the poison-handling snake-drinkers I am confident there are some real wackos but also some whose hearts have been touched and in whom the true flame burns.

So I think that maybe "can it be perverted?" is not a good standard. As I like to say "Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds."

This is kind of a superficial response,and I apologize. I hope to savor all your remarks today, but my assignment for RCIA tonight is to explain in 15 minutes why we should give a darn about the Bible and in another 15 minutes to talk about being fallen and particular sins. Pray for me.

Oh, one after-thought. Our theology rightly (and I think we do okay with this on FR) addresses not only what we are saved FROM but what we are saved TO. The FIRST motivation for faith may be "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" -- the stick. But there is also the carrot, and I think as the finish line approaches, we look less behind and more ahead to the prize -- that sight the seeing of which will make us glad forever.

454 posted on 10/26/2011 3:43:45 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 447 | View Replies ]

To: boatbums; CynicalBear; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; ...

Perhaps there’s no harm after all in letting them think that there’s a purgatory.

After all, when someone is burning in hell for eternity, it’d be nice for them to think that it’s really purgatory and that some day it will all be over.


460 posted on 10/26/2011 6:29:21 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 447 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson