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To: Mad Dawg
To the Catholics I pinged… to ask if you think this is more or less okay.

I agree in the main with your points and caveats, however...

In general there are some obvious problems with blessed assurance when coupled with easy believerism - as it often is.

An extreme example to make a point: Say I told you, "Believe there are purple striped carrots and I'll give you a thousand bucks." "I believe," you say. And it's quite possible you did believe it. But how do we quantify "believe." First, did you really believe (enough); did you believe correctly (are the stripes vertical or horizontal) and did you believe with the proper motivation?

If blessed assurance is "believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved now and forever,' well, you get the analogy.

Believe, faith, trust in are all similar, nearly identical in this case. If I say I believe do I really? "the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do." Do I qualify under this?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Well, certainly not nearly enough, but I believe don't I?

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Gee, I thought just believing got me in the kingdom.

Then there's the motivation question. if I believe in order to be rewarded, of what value is this? Would I *not* believe if it got me the same reward? Am i marrying for money or for love?

We can easily fool ourselves of our true motivation. And, in the end, who is the judge of this? Me or Christ?

Then there is the problem of the increased tendency toward the sin of presumption that, IMHO, is more likely with blessed assurance/easy believerism.

Finally, if I am assured, have I got God in a box in my pocket? No way He can change his mind about me if I take advantage or forget my proper position or sin boldly without sincere repentance?

I have little doubt there are saints with assurance as you mention; but, the bulk application of blessed assurance/easy believerism to every Christian?… don't think that's good exegesis, theology or good practice. Certainly at least when compared to increasing in love, doing our very best to follow jesus in that love - while repenting our failings and praying for His mercy.

MHO, FWIW.

Thanks as always for your posts.

446 posted on 10/25/2011 9:34:31 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; Mad Dawg
Then there's the motivation question. if I believe in order to be rewarded, of what value is this? Would I *not* believe if it got me the same reward? Am i marrying for money or for love?

The motivation for faith is based on seeing my need for redemption and accepting the solution to my need from God. The first step is ALWAYS the understanding of my sinfulness and the reality of a just and holy God who will not look upon sin. That is where the grace of God comes in. He knows my need and, in his mercy, provides a way in which I can be cleansed of my sin. He has already set down a rule that without death - the shedding of blood - there can be no remission of sin. He provided, for a time, a temporary covering of sin by the blood of animals - as an object lesson of the severity of sin. He then, as promised, took on human flesh and made the satisfactory payment of blood, himself. He then offers the benefit of that - atonement - to all who would accept his gift of grace through faith.

But he didn't stop there. Whenever someone honestly surrenders to God in faith and accepts his gift of eternal life, he also comes to indwell the believer with his own Spirit. We are given a new nature, born from above, and the old nature, which was a slave to sin, no longer has reign within our hearts. The person who is a child of God through this new birth, WILL be changed and, although salvation is granted by faith alone, it is not a faith which is alone - good works result from a changed heart and that is how the world can know we are truly His. The remaining time we are given on earth after this rebirth is spent in growing in grace, learning holiness, being conformed into the image of Christ. Though the old nature is no longer in charge, those who have not learned the way of God will be disciplined by our Heavenly Father who will work in us to bring us into the full realization of being sons and daughters of the Most High.

Finally, if I am assured, have I got God in a box in my pocket? No way He can change his mind about me if I take advantage or forget my proper position or sin boldly without sincere repentance? I have little doubt there are saints with assurance as you mention; but, the bulk application of blessed assurance/easy believerism to every Christian?… don't think that's good exegesis, theology or good practice. Certainly at least when compared to increasing in love, doing our very best to follow jesus in that love - while repenting our failings and praying for His mercy.

Although we don't "have God in a box", once we are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, God will never "change his mind" about us. The Spirit was given as a down payment of our inheritance and we are sealed with him until that day. God holds onto us, we don't hold onto God. We are in his hand and no one can pluck us out. He will not lose a one nor cast anyone out for any reason. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. It is not a matter of "easy believerism" - which is an awful way to speak of the grace of God - and it is not simply a "head" knowledge that makes faith real. It is a surrendering to God, admitting that I cannot save myself and I fall upon his mercy seat of grace pleading the blood of Christ as my only sacrifice for my sin. I cannot ever be perfect - yet God gives me HIS perfection through Christ.

I know where this reservedness comes from, it is fear that people will have no control over themselves when they understand they can go to heaven by grace through faith. Fear that such a freedom in Christ will release the baseness of human nature. But that is completely wrong, the old nature has been overcome by a new, spiritual man and, through the indwelling Spirit, a person is made whole, changed by grace, love and mercy. A person who claims to have made a choice for Christ, but has no demonstration of it in his life, is proven himself that he has a dead faith - it is not a living faith which produces no conscious desire to do the works God has prepared for us to do. BUT, we are not saved by those works - they are proof of a saving faith.

I'm sure we all know people who claim to be Christians, but their lives give no evidence of it. The answer is not to convince them that they MUST do works to be saved, but rather, explain again, teach again, share again the true good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and just exactly what it means to be a believer. For someone to go through the motions of doing good deeds but without saving faith is exactly those people Jesus spoke about who on the last day he would tell he never knew them. Those people are NOT the ones who refused to believe - they call him Lord - but they were relying on their "many wonderful works" they did to earn them eternal life. This gift only comes by faith in the grace of God who gives us eternal life through Christ, not our works.

I know it's late, but if you're still up I hope you have a good night.

447 posted on 10/25/2011 11:00:29 PM PDT by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: D-fendr
Then there is the problem of the increased tendency toward the sin of presumption that, IMHO, is more likely with blessed assurance/easy believerism.

HaHaHa...Blessed Assurance is a sin...

It's gotta be rough going thru life not knowing if you are a child of God...

You guys don't even know if you will make it to your purgatory...

If you are good enough, maybe you will get to heaven...I'm here to tell you, you won't be good enough...I will never be good enough...None of the Apostles were good enough...

470 posted on 10/26/2011 8:07:21 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: D-fendr
"We can easily fool ourselves of our true motivation."

Too many think that our motivations supersede our actions and unfortunately for too many God has become a means to a personal end.

As a I had a Catechist that explained it in very simple terms; that True happiness never came when we put ourselves first, but only when we recognized that JOY is an acronym for Jesus - Others - Yourself.

Similarly, those that relentlessly and even ruthlessly pursue Salvation will find it elusive. The Ignatian imperative must be that we not seek exclusively the Salvation of God, we must seek the God of Salvation. We must not seek the compassion of God, we must seek the God of compassion. We we must not seek God's mercy, we must seek the God of mercy. And we must not the forgiveness of God, we must seek the God of forgiveness. Like Grace, these things are not a wage or a reward, but a gift from God.

472 posted on 10/26/2011 8:35:26 AM PDT by Natural Law (Transubstantiation - Change we can believe in.)
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