Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
It appears your good buddy, NL, disagrees that anyone can say "We are saved". He said:
There is no specific incantation to reject Salvation, but there are conscious choices that negate it and regain it No one is completely cut of from Salvation, nor confident of it until the moment of their death. Your admission is that "Always" doesn't always mean always, though.
285 posted on Monday, October 24, 2011 6:55:02 PM by Natural Law (Transubstantiation - Change we can believe in.)
What NL said was preceeded by There is no specific incantation to reject Salvation, but there are conscious choices that negate it and regain it >No one is completely cut of from Salvation --
It's very telling that your post purposely excerpts out the earlier part -- that post is sneaky. As stated before and over and over again, we are saved, are being saved and will be saved by the blood of the lamb. By the grace of God we are in the process of sanctification ending in the final sanctification/purgatory/seeing the face of the Lord -- as RNmomof7's post said
Do you have any explanation for God predestining people to hell? Why would one believe that God programs people to do evil and says that those he programmed to do evil will then be pushed into hell forever -- isn't that psychopathic -- why does your believe it?
It is very clear that it is not the Catholics who abstain from reading Bibles, when discussing matters; rather it is the pre-saved self-declared folks who post precanned preformatted snippets. Let's face it, your posts take the occasional snippet taken out of context and implied to mean other than it implies.
When I want to hear the Gospel of Christ, I go to Christ, not to a group of people who teach that God must honour your self-declaration of salvation.
look at Matthew 4:17-25
| 17 7 From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 18 8 As he was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; they were fishermen. 19 He said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 9 At once they left their nets and followed him. 21 He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat, with their father Zebedee, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him. 23 10 He went around all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, 11 proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and curing every disease and illness among the people. 24 12 His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed, lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them. 25 And great crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, 13 Jerusalem, and Judea, and from beyond the Jordan followed him. |
| Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.' 24 12 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. 26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined." 28 13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. |
How were they described? They were astonished!!! Not converted, not baptized, not made believers, just astonished. Just as the Pharisees and the Sadducees were. Let us go to the Plain.
| Luke 6: 12 3 In those days he departed to the mountain to pray, and he spent the night in prayer 4 to God. 13 When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, 5 whom he also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, 6 and his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called a Zealot, 7 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, 8 who became a traitor. 17 9 And he came down with them and stood on a stretch of level ground. A great crowd of his disciples and a large number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon 18 came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and even those who were tormented by unclean spirits were cured. 19 Everyone in the crowd sought to touch him because power came forth from him and healed them all.< |
People came because He healed them, not because they were baptized (or elect) believers. The Gospel does not say that. But let us turn to the last 2/3 of the chapter of Matthew 22. These give numerous examples of why the Brahminical attitude is as unScriptural as the WCF.
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Matthew 22: 15 8 Then the Pharisees 9 went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. |
Be you as stony as a Biblical execution, how can you not read these words of Jesus and repent of your and your good boddys' nonScriptural and unChristian posts?
"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)Jesus himself adds to this when he speaks in Matthew 12:32 of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.
Post our death, we who are saved are not 'punished' anymore - the "final sanctification"/"purgatory" is not "punishment", but we who are saved are prepared, by the blood of the lamb, in the last "stage" of the sanctification process for entry into heaven
this is not a place, not a period of time as it is outside this space-time concept of ours. It is the final "stage" of the sanctification process and it is not punishment either.
Unfortunately we get stuck in words, but the meaning is the same: final sanctification or purgatory, but are not "punishments", it is for those already saved and it is done by the grace of God, the sacrifice of Christ that forgave all sins and sanctifies us by the power of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb
Which happened at the cross and was done for us forever. The purification rites given the O.T. Priest have done been fulfilled, completed, and finsished.
Take it this way -- after baptism by the Holy Spirit we are not condemned, but most of us still sin in small ways, yet we are on God's process of sanctification by the sacrifice of Christ as in Heaven there is no sin.
We ALL have sinned all except Jesus Christ while in this world have sinned. Our sins both before and after recieving Christ are buried and dead. They are no more. Only our deeds which determine our treasures in heaven face a test of purity afterward. Deeds both good and bad are tested for purity but not our physical or spiritual bodies. Our physical bodies are returned to dust {begin to decay} & our spiritual ones are with Christ the moment we die. It doesn't take a second removal the first one suffices.
1 Corinthians 15 v45The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”£ But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46What came first was the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48Every human being has an earthly body just like Adam’s, but our heavenly bodies will be just like Christ’s. 49Just as we are now like Adam, the man of the earth, so we will someday be like Christ, the man from heaven. 50What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These perishable bodies of ours are not able to live forever. 51But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. 52It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died£ will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. 53For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die. 54When this happens—when our perishable earthly bodies have been transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die—then at last the Scriptures will come true: “Death is swallowed up in victory.£ 55O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”£
The Last Trumpet in this case is not the blast mentioned in The Revelation. The unbelievers are not mentioned in this and those passages was directed at believers so they would know.
The Last or The Second Blast is the wedding blast the Father announces to The Groom bring home your bride. The first one occured 2000 years ago announcing the physical birth of Christ. The mystery is those who are alive physically at the time this event happens where some will be instantly transformed can be at any time. When? Who knows? Only the Father knows. Tonight? Possibly, or tomorrow possible as well, several hundred more years? Yea that is possible also.
Stephen saw Him as did John before their deaths. What purified them? Go back to Moses who on Mt Sinai was with GOD though he could not see Him but only a shadow? Or back to the N.T. what happened to Saul going to Demascus? Did he see anyone? No. He only heard. Why? Saul had to ask who he was talking too. Stephen did not have to be told whom he was seeing before he was stoned too death. Christ purified Stephen just as Christ had purified His disciples who walked and talked with Him after His resurection.
Christ imediately after His resurection He first appeared to a few of His disciples and at that time told them not too touch him yet because He had not been before The Father. He went before the Father in a period imediately after His death and after His disciples saw him tHim the first time. During that time His Father accepted The Lamb of GOD's sacrifice. The purification for you, me, Mary, and all who believe was completed and accepted.
yes, I agree that we WERE Saved by Christ's sacrifice. This was done once and forever. Yet, as the scripture notes we are being saved -- the sacrifice of Christ forgave all sins, but we are being saved -- we who are saved are being saved -- in the sanctification process.
| 2 Cor 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day |
The purification rites given the O.T. Priest have done been fulfilled, completed, and finsished.
yes, I agree. It was done, completed. Christ's sacrifice saves you today and saved your ancestors yesterday and will save your descendants -- this one-time sacrifice saves and is saving us today by the grace of God
We ALL have sinned all except Jesus Christ while in this world have sinned. -- yes.
Let me repeat that purgatory/final sanctification is only for those going to heaven. If at the time of your death you're headed the other way, no dice, no final sanctification.
If you are "in" final sanctification, then you are going to heaven, cleaned of all the impurity of sin. You are not going to be able to do "anything" to get "out" of this sanctification -- that sanctification is by the grace of God.
Or let's go further, it appears your good buddies consider the following about your beliefs:
Your good buddies' statements shows a lot...
17“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.”
Now after He had ascended the first time would he not be defiled by allowing His disciples to touch him when he returned to them? Or were they cleaned and santified? He appears to them, eats with them, walks with them. Yet later when He comes to eal with Saul only a voice is heard. Paul could not see Him but only hear him. Paul was blinded.
Maybe you haven't spent enough time with Catholics. Grumbling about bishops or the loose cannons in Vatican City is a major recreational activity. Popes and bishops are mighty thick on the ground in Dante's Inferno.
One of history's great Lay Dominicans, Catherine of Siena, had no reticence in confronting the Pope in Avignon and, in urgent but respectful language, telling him to man up and return to Rome. I do not see this sort of thing as contradicting the idea of the Magisterium or implying any disobedience or disloyalty.
But God raises up men from without the formal magisterium if needed, ...
I wonder if you may be over-concretizing the Magisterium. Catherine of Siena was not a cleric , but she is a "doctor of the Church." With respect to the Magisterium it doesn't get more 'formal' than that.
I got new glasses and they're great! I hope you can get some that are right for you. I don't HAVE headaches, I AM a headache!
Where is that in the passage? It speaks of "every man", not the pastors; it speaks of burning off stubble, not of "lesser rewards". Read what is written.
Who said "self purging"? Not me.
One can mistake an imperfection in the seeing apparatus to something in one's surround. So it is here. I have not said "self purging" nor have I said the cross was insufficient. I hold with Augustine and Paul that perseverance is a grace. I don't know how I can be clearer than I have been,but if people are so sure that they know what I'm saying that they will not listen nor read, that seems to be beyond my power to amend.
Perhaps the problem is that, while they deny it, the post-Nominalist Calvinists and others really think that God makes marionettes of us. I suggest this because of hints of a misunderstanding of freedom. I remember defending a Biblical statement "Deus autem noster in cælo; omnia quæcumque voluit fecit," against a sola scriptura proponent, who did not understand that a truly free will chooses good, while the will the chooses evil is compromised in some way. God's will is truly free, therefore He can do and does "omnia quaecumque voluit", whatever He wishes.
The man who MEANS it when he says, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," means it because he has received the gift and grace of a free will, which, being free, wills as it ought, namely: as God wills -- quaecumque voluit, because God's will compells WILLING assent by its beauty.
In the popular love songs of our time, a lover compares himself to a puppet. What makes that wrong is NOT that his will is drawn by love, but that that sort and degree of love is inappropriate to its object, another human.
But when we encounter an "object" which is due that sort and degree of love, and when our wills are, by grace, unhindered then we freely love with all our will. At that point, the distinction between the saint's will and God's is hard to discern.
One would think that some of my antagonists had never waltzed. In such a comparatively simple task and delight, if the dancers are any good at all, it ceases to be clear who is leading and who is following. The gentleman indeed sets the pattern, but the lady is so attuned to little pressures of hand and arm that there is no perceptible lag in compliance.
I have always admired my waltz partners because it seemed to me they had the much harder task. But I never saw any trace of complaint that their will was dominated by mine. We danced and enjoyed it.
So God, who is the music (and dance floor, and ballroom) as well as the dance partner, draws eager and happy assent from us.
Yet my antagonists persist in putting into my words a pelagianism or semi-pelagianism that is simply not there. Lingering behind their protestations of sola gratia there is a seeming inability to conceive of the will which is graced into freedom and, maintained by grace in that freedom, is further graced to see the Good and to be drawn to it by its intrinsic beauty. The irony is rich and sorrowful.
This can be understood as only invoking it insofar as fire being purifying
Bingo. That is all the Purgatory is: purification preceding the entry into Heaven,necessary for some but perhaps not for all.
As to the lines of authority in the Church, trust me, they are not limited to the comments to some half-baked American translation of the Holy Scripture. If you have a direct question, I will be glad to answer.
Yeah. Hey! I'll do all the long and pointless posting that's needed around here!
:-)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Romans 10: 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Are sanctified, once for all, we are justified. Not in the process of . Not will be, but are! No process to it.
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