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To: Natural Law
The ignorance of Catholic doctrine expressed on these threads is truly breathtaking in it's scope. Catholic doctrine and the Catechism is very clear that we have one redeemer and mediator; Jesus Christ. The words co-redeemer and mediatrix do not appear in the Catechism, although they do appear frequently in anti-Catholic publications and comic books by authors we are not permitted to name in this Forum. Co-Redeemer does not mean that Mary is a "co-equal" participant. It is an acknowledgment that she cooperated in our salvation by agreeing to be the vessel through which Jesus and our salvation passed. Catholics acknowledge that Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith in a way we should emulate.

If there's ignorance of a doctrine here, then a good place to begin would be straightening it out within your own definitions first. This is what I found when I looked up "Co-Redemptrix".

The concept of Co-redemptrix refers to an indirect or unequal but important participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably: that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind, and to bring about all particular post-assumption graces by way of intercession.

You're right that Mary isn't a co-equal participant, she's not a participant in our Redemption at all. She gave birth to Christ, she didn't have anything to do with His redemption of mankind. As for saying that Mary isn't called the Mediatrix by the RCC, here's some quotes for you from the Catholic Planet website. (www.catholicplanet.com)

Second Vatican Council: “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from, nor adds anything to, the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 62.)

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

Now, what was that lie you were trying to get past about Mary not being called a Co-Redeemer?

601 posted on 09/05/2011 9:17:13 AM PDT by Avalon Hussar
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To: Avalon Hussar
This is what I found when I looked up "Co-Redemptrix".

Add this:

....let’s look at some people who have in fact called the Virgin Mary the Co-redemptrix: John Paul II (on six different occasions); Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta; St. Padre Pio, stigmatic wonder worker of the 20th century; Sr. Lucia, the Fatima visionary; St. Francis Cabrini, the first American citizen to be canonized; St. Jose Maria Escriva, founder of the Opus Dei; St. Edith Stein, co-patroness of Europe; papal theologians Cardinals Ciappiand Cottier; contemporary Church leaders such as Cardinal Schönborn, General Secretary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Mother Angelica, foundress of worldwide Catholic television and radio network EWTN; and a host of other saints, popes, mystics, prelates, theologians, doctors of the Church, and lay leaders, with an ecclesial line of succession dating back to the 14th century.

Do we see dangerous extremism, heresy, or any anti-ecumenical spirit in people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa? Would saints like Padre Pio and Mother Cabrini participate in Marian excess to the detriment of Jesus and his Church? Would Cristoph Cardinal Schönborn, general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, use and defend the Co-redemptrix title if it were in any way unorthodox or theologically questionable? Would a Fatima visionary use, explain and defend the Co-redemptrix title six times in her last great writing, Calls from the Message of Fatima, when doing so would be offensive to the Holy See, who granted the imprimatur to her book? Or, even more, to Our Lady herself, with whom Sr. Lucia experienced direct mystical communications for decades?

Why, then, would we fear calling Mary the Co-redemptrix with Jesus, the divine Redeemer of humanity, when these pontiffs, saints, theologians and mystics for the past 700 years have done so?
-- from the thread Are You Afraid of Mary “Co-redemptrix”?


612 posted on 09/05/2011 9:26:15 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed: he's hated on seven continents)
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To: Avalon Hussar; Religion Moderator

C0 in Latin means “with”

The Blessed Virgin Mary came bearing the child Jesus.

The Blessed Virgin Mary came “with” the Son of God and Son of Man within her womb.

Hope that clarifies your misinformation. BTW, I don’t think you offered sources (Live-Links) for all that.

What I am posting is common Latin language knowledge.


613 posted on 09/05/2011 9:26:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Avalon Hussar

Lest we miss the point -Let me break it down - this discussion is about free will.

Eve chose to say no to God and let sin into paradise. Mary chose to say yes to God and let the Rededemer come. If Mary had said no - no Redeemer. Mary is the new Eve.

Mary is the new ark of the covenant.

This does not take away from Our Lord’s sacrifice. The plan is perfect - God made humans and only human’s could help him fix it.

Again - to reiterate - free will is the issue here. If humans had no no free will we would have been just pretty creatures - and God wanted us to be “like” him with intellect and reason.

The whole Mary situation is a reflection of this!! It’s not a difficult concept.


632 posted on 09/05/2011 9:49:57 AM PDT by stonehouse01
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To: Avalon Hussar; Religion Moderator
"Now, what was that lie you were trying to get past about Mary not being called a Co-Redeemer?"

Your failure to comprehend aside, nothing I posted was a lie.

653 posted on 09/05/2011 10:09:39 AM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Avalon Hussar; Salvation

I’ve never understood the animosity towards the title “Co-Redeemer”, and, along those lines, I’ve never understood why some Catholics shy away from the term.

I’m with Salvation, when she says, “Never apologize for a devotion to Mary”. (paraphrased)

If one is able to look at the situation objectively: The term “co-redeemer” does not make Mary a “goddess” or “equal to Jesus”. Just like when I can say I’m a “co-worker” with my boss at work. We are “co-workers” even though my boss is above me in “power”. We are both working toward the same goal (success for the business).

With Mary, it’s the same concept. Through her intercessory prayers and, most importantly, through her “fiat”, she cooperates with the Saving Grace of her Son. This doesn’t mean she is “equal” to Him in power.

In the same respect, we can all be called “co-redeemers” when (or even if) we cooperate with Jesus in our lives. Being a “witness” for Christ is exactly that; it’s not merely relating one’s “testimony of salvation”, it’s living, day to day obedient to Him, thus demonstrating to the world it is indeed possible to live as a Christian.

Thus, a capitalized title of “Co-redeemer” for Mary is not something to be afraid of, as she was the first to cooperate with her Son; if this is stepping on some fellow Catholic toes around here, so be it. I’m sick of seeing that title “apologized away”. Mary not only deserves it, but we should all embrace it, as a reminder of what true Christian faith is, as it truly is not “sola fide”.

Maybe such a reminder that we are all part of the economy of salvation Christ has afforded through His Sacrifice is too uncomfortable for some, as it reminds some they aren’t truly living the Christian faith.

Flame away if you or anyone else wishes. As I’ve said in the past I’m done debating Catholicism; this is more for any lurker than the edification of any stony heart here.


661 posted on 09/05/2011 10:17:20 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Avalon Hussar
Do not accuse another Freeper of telling a lie, it attributes motive, the intent to deceive. It is mind reading and therefore, "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

672 posted on 09/05/2011 10:26:47 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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