Posted on 07/10/2011 11:15:20 PM PDT by Cronos
The Presbyterian Church USA will quietly usher in gay ordination when an amendment on Sunday formally enters the Book of Order of the church’s Constitution.
The change comes after 33 years of contentious discussion within the Presbyterian Church and as the gay-rights movement gains momentum in other Protestant Churches.
“This is a very historic day,” said Rev. Daniel L. Martian, pastor of the Presbyterian Church of Livingston.
The new policy makes it easier for the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. to ordain gays and lesbians as clergy if they chose by dropping a policy requiring unmarried clergy to remain celibate. “Now that the prohibition is over with, we can come to the bar and have a drink without getting arrested,” Martian said.
The change was approved by the Presbyterian national assembly and received approval by a majority of the denomination's 173 presbyteries, or regional church bodies....
The Presbyterian Church joins a growing alliance of Protestant Churches that allow for gay clergy: United Church of Christ, Evangelical Lutheran, and Episcopal Church. United Methodist Church is still debating the issue.
“This is a very historic day,” said Rev. Daniel L. Martian, pastor of the Presbyterian Church of Livingston.
Yeah, historical as in another step toward Armageddon.
Indeed . . . funny how these “historic days” are dark days.
“Now that the prohibition is over with, we can come to the bar and have a drink without getting arrested,”
This is not Christian thinking.
well, tell it to this bunch of Presbyterians
Pity them! They are under a worse delusion than even the pagans and unbelievers. An unbeliever might be convinced by the weight of scripture to change their mind, but these fallen Christians have heard every scriptural argument for and against homosexuality and have believed the lie. Once salt has lost its saltiness, what can possibly restore it?
We left one PCUSA church for another. At first I didn’t see much point until we spoke with some of the pastors at the new church. More conservative and Biblical than our old church. We had a series of studies at the old church after the issue was brought up a couple of years ago by a local issue in that church. It was amazing how not even the pastor would try to bring the Bible into the conversation. It was usually just a bunch of “Well I know a gay guy that is really great and loving and I dont think....” (I would say that about people that I know too, just didn’t agree that they should be leaders of a church!)
The new church is part of the “confessing” movement or whatever it is called that is anti gay ordination. And the new rule does not say a church must hire a gay, but the restriction of “chastity in marriage” or whatever is removed. It is still up to the individual church to decide based on their Biblical views, etc.
I like the new church in spite of it being PCUSA. I don’t however put any money in the annual envelope where they ask for money that goes to the national PCUSA as a per capita charge!
I’m waiting for someone to explain how it’s OK to stay in a denomination that accepts heresy. The Bible is quite clear.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
“I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of min to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.”
So how will your church’s leaders follow scripture when they go to meetings where unrepentant gay ministers from other PCUSA churches are represented? Whether your church likes it or not, they are represented by the denomination printed on the sign out front, and that denomination now permits outright heresy. Even worse! It lets the heretics into its leadership positions! Heaven forbid!
With such people do not even sit down to eat!
I’m waiting for someone to explain how it’s OK to stay in a denomination that accepts heresy. The Bible is quite clear.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
“I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of min to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.”
So how will your church’s leaders follow scripture when they go to meetings where unrepentant gay ministers from other PCUSA churches are represented? Whether your church likes it or not, they are represented by the denomination printed on the sign out front, and that denomination now permits outright heresy. Even worse! It lets the heretics into its leadership positions! Heaven forbid!
With such people do not even sit down to eat!
This sounds like they have an eye on the collection plate. Thinking the new queer clergy will bring in legions of new queer congregants, “church” leaders are betting queer money is as good as any.
Somehow I don`t imagine the Lord will agree.
The beginning of the end.
While Jesus commanded we love sinners he never commanded we accept their sin and help them be sinners...........
The new policy makes it easier for the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. to ordain gays and lesbians as clergy if they chose by dropping a policy requiring unmarried clergy to remain celibate
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So basically they are saying that sexual activity between unmarried members of the Church is fine.In fact you can have sex with unmarried members of the Church or even hire a prostitute if you like, and become a Pastor and a Bishop.
Not bad
Which Commandment will they loosen restrictions on next?
I was just telling Morpheus that I've found in my experience here on FR, there are many good folks, good CHRISTIANS in denominations we think are "all bad" like the ECUSA, UMC, etc. etc. -- they're hanging on, hoping beyond hope. And we should not condemn them with the rest. -- and thanks for being an example of one of the good folks from the PCUSA
good point, v —> 21-12, how does your church reconcile with this statement?
Not sure I understand your question.
sorry, I was directing the q to 21twelve based on your statement
When will gay relationships in these ‘Christian’ denominations cease to become optional and become a requirement? After all, one cannot minister to gay Presbyterians if one does not experience the joys of homosexual sex, right? I think that we’ll hear something along these lines shortly.
Because even though his church is part of a denomination, it is allowed to do what it wants. If it does not want to ordain homosexuals, or marry homosexuals, that is its right. It does not have to agree with the national PC USA on this. So, (for now) he is probably in a pretty decent church.
Sans-Culotte: “Because even though his church is part of a denomination, it is allowed to do what it wants.”
Sadly, that’s ignoring clear scriptural guidance...
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2 John 1:7, 10 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
So we’re instructed to avoid, withdraw, and not receive heretics into our houses, but it’s perfectly OK to share a denomination with them? Again, it’s pretty clear heresy must be expelled or it will eat a denomination like a disease. I’m not talking about expelling unbelievers who are searching for Christ. I’m talking about expelling those who claim to be Christian but practice and preach outright heresy. If they can’t be corrected, they must be expelled. If they can’t be expelled, then a true believer should avoid them like the spiritual plague.
That is a lame response. And on another version of this thread, you say "I'm not a Catholic, but this is what a Catholic friend of mine thinks..."
You sound like one of Rush's seminar callers, who say "I agree with you 99% of the time, but on this issue...." In other words, you sound like a Protestant-bashing Catholic to me. I confess I could be wrong; but that is how you come off.
At this point, in the Presbyterian USA denomination, the individual churches are free to decide whether they will allow homosexual ministers, homosexual elders, or homosexual whatevers. The PCUSA allows certain apostate/heretic/non-believing denominations to do whatever they want to do. Also, individual churches are free to reject whatever they will. So the poster who left one apostate PC USA church for another PC USA church may actually be in a God-believing church. You live in a country that allows abortion. Does that make you an abortion supporter? Or are you someone trying to make a difference in a world that is lost? Should you kill yourself because the rest of the country is apostate?
If an individual church chooses to buck the denominational trend and not allow those things, how can you see something wrong with that? Your scriptural examples are pathetic. You seem to think that one church can expel the rest of the denomination. Technically EVERYONE was in the same denomination in Paul's time. Should Paul have simply hung it up and retired? He was speaking to SPECIFIC CHURCHES. If someone is a member of a PC USA church that is bucking the national trend toward apostasy, they deserve the support of all Christians.
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