Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
I think the message of the Scriptures is enough for me.
“Time and space are an illusion that will cease.”
Nope. Not what the Scriptures say. Nor the the rest either.
You do, of course, have Scripture to dispute what Dr. Fruechtenbaum wrote?
Your story gets more convoluted, was Pastor #1 LCMS, or did he and you become LCMS in 1961?
Fruechtenbaum said:
“But Jesus has never yet sat on the Throne of David ruling over a Kingdom of Israel.”
What a ridiculous and false statement! He has merely conquered sin, death, and hell, ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God. Of which David himself said, “The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.’ The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!” (Psalm 110:1-2)
The true exegesis of these words of David are given in Acts 2:29-36. The words are those of Peter, spoken to his own people on Pentecost in the temple courtyard. But the exegete is God the Holy Spirit. His point is that Jesus is enthroned in heaven at the right hand of Father, and that this is the throne that was promised to David’s Descendent, the throne that will endure forever. The conclusion rolls like thunder across the centuries: “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36)
Arnold Fruechtenbaum is as false a prophet as Harold Camping.
As far as the interpretation of the Old Testament goes, I will trust Jesus’ words in John 5:39-40 above all others. Everything promised to David in regard to the eternal throne, kingdom, and people guaranteed by God to Him are fulfilled in Christ, who now sits on the throne of David gathering His people both Jew and Gentile to Himself through the proclamation of the blessed Gospel. At the same time as He, the Good Shepherd and King, is gathering His lost sheep in every corner of the world, His enemies are being put under His feet, until that great day when all will stand before Him, the sheep on His right and goats on His left, and the full penalty of unbelief will be carried out.
The trouble with Fruechtenbaum is that he is as fixated on Revelation 20:1ff. as the pope (or more properly, the papacy) is on Matthew 16:19. Each demands of all people that his own personal, private (yes, I am using that term in reference to 2 Peter 1:19-21) interpretation of his key verse be accepted; and thereafter that it become the lens through which all the rest of the Bible, Old and New Testament, must be viewed, understood, interpreted, and believed. All who place themselves outside of that demand are called heretics, and are damned. Both will dance around the damned part, because it doesn’t make for good public relations, but in the end that is both the demand and the threat. The simple truth is just the opposite, that both of these sets of verse are to be understood in the light of the thousands upon thousands of other verse in the Bible, which are the mind of the Holy Spirit. He who is their Author alone has the right of interpretation. All other interpretations are by definition private, unauthorized, and false.
The immovable center of the Bible is Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Son of Man. He is the light that brings light to the Gentiles and He is the glory of His people Israel. In Him Jew and Gentile are one, and beloved of the Lord. The Church does not replace Israel, no. In Christ, Israel, the Israel of God, has conquered the world in grace, and His kingdom will be peace.
Bottom line: I reject Arnold Fruechtenbaum as a false prophet because Scripture, Scripture alone, demonstrates it. And it doesn’t even take that many verses to do it, although they could be marshaled by the hundreds if not thousands. Dispensationalism is false doctrine, period.
Can you also give me some independent history sources which tell us that there was a time in history when Jesus Christ sat on the throne of David and ruled over Israel?
Pastor #1 and our church joined LCMS in 1961. He was placed on the LCMS roster. I was 5 and a baptized member at the time.
May we discuss the role of Pastor in a LCMS church? First of all are you a Pastor?
GN wrote:
“Can you give me the year(s) when Jesus Christ sat on the throne of David and ruled over Israel? Because the Scripture given speaks of a literal thousand year kingdom - not some allegorized, meaningless pile of nothing. Can you give me the year(s) when Jesus Christ sat on the throne of David and ruled over Israel? Because the Scripture given speaks of a literal thousand year kingdom - not some allegorized, meaningless pile of nothing.”
You are doing exactly what I said, demanding that the entire Holy Scriptures be interpreted through the lens of Revelation 20. This is like the game that is played by the Romanists, where every time you show them to be wrong in the Bible they turn to their assertion that the Roman Magisterium and only the Roman Magisterium can interpret the Bible, pointing to Matthew 16:19. Anything contrary to their interpretation is “some allegorized, meaningless pile of nothing.”
You have built your certainty on Revelation 20. And all the verses that you have piled on your false interpretation of it prove nothing, for they were put to false use. You have built your house on the sand of your “literal” millenium and it will be as Jesus said in Matthew 7:26-27. I have built on the spiritual Rock that followed Israel from Egypt to Canaan, which Rock is Christ. And thus it will be as Jesus said in Matthew 7:24-25.
You spend so much time scanning headlines for the latest signs to undergird your notions about the Bible (much like others read every story of this or that apparition of Mary or image of Jesus in a burnt piece of toast) and arguing with people on FR. Don’t you ever consider whether it is time well spent?
Again, I will let the readers determine who has let the Holy Scriptures speak and who has clouded them. As they do, let them consider whether you have really answered my post with your screechy demands.
I will rest in Christ my Lord, the Light to lighten the Gentiles and the Glory of His people Israel.
No, I'm really not. I'm actually referring to the wealth of Old Testament Scripture that speaks about the future Millennial Reign. All Revelation 20 does is tell how long the kingdom will last. It doesn't hold a candle to all the Scripture throughout the OT that talks of the literal, 1000 reign of Christ.
You have built your certainty on Revelation 20.
This simply is not going to work for you. This isn't about Revelation 20.
And all the verses that you have piled on your false interpretation of it prove nothing, for they were put to false use.
But you can't show how either the interpretation was false or how it was "put to false use". You have no Biblical response to the article. You've already been wrong twice about Revelation 20.
You have built your house on the sand of your “literal” millenium and it will be as Jesus said in Matthew 7:26-27.
If Christ gives literal descriptions of what His kingdom will be like, does that then mean that the kingdom is not literal?
You spend so much time scanning headlines for the latest signs to undergird your notions about the Bible (much like others read every story of this or that apparition of Mary or image of Jesus in a burnt piece of toast) and arguing with people on FR. Don’t you ever consider whether it is time well spent?
Does this fall into the category of making the thread about a particular poster?
Anyway, you're wrong again. What Bible-believing Christians do is, for example, see the passage in Zechariah 12:3 about the entire world coming against Israel in the last days, and how God will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone in the last days, and then we see it happening right in front of us. That's not the same as "scanning headlines". That's taking the word of God literally, as He intended for it to be taken, and not assigning other meanings to the Scripture, or taking away from what God intended for us to know. "Scanning headlines" is another crutch used by people who assign their own meanings to Scripture to deny the actual, true meaning of the word of God.
We actually accept the Bible as God wrote it instead of taking it upon ourselves, with no authority from God whatsoever, to allegorize and spiritualize the Bible into meaninglessness and then feeling threatened by those who take the Bible as God wrote it and not as how we wish it were.
Again, I will let the readers determine who has let the Holy Scriptures speak and who has clouded them. As they do, let them consider whether you have really answered my post with your screechy demands.
Oh, absolutely. Let the readers decide who took the Scriptures, both Old Testament and New, about the future, literal kingdom of Christ, and made the case for taking the Bible as God wrote it instead of the thousands and thousands of different meanings that those who allegorize Scripture manage to come up with on their own. Let the readers decide who is "clouding" the Scriptures when Jesus Christ gives a detailed description of what conditions will be like during His thousand year reign, and then they get to read how all those details are really meaningless, that what Jesus really meant was that His kingdom is in the "hearts" of people.
I agree. Let the reader decide.
And I made "screechy demands"? If you don't want to be questioned on something, then don't make the statement.
So he wasn't LCMS at the time he preached only Lutherans in heaven? Since that obviously isn't a doctrinal position of the LCMS. I am not a pastor.
INDEED:
“2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
If you believe the physical earth and heavens is to be destroyed then you must also accept a repeat of Genesis and the creation of heaven and earth anew.
And the end of the universe wouldn’t leave much for the meek to inherit as Psalm 37:11 says,
“But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
I agree with Randy Alcorn in his HEAVEN:
That perspective is an UNBIBLICAL example of 'Christo-Platonism' . . . and, imho, no small amount of
ASSUMPTIONS about Scripture instead of
ACCEPTING SCRIPTURE at logical, straightforward value for what it says.
It also smacks of no small amount of gnosticism, to me.
"Jesus said of the devil, 'When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. " (John 8:44). Some of Satan's favorite lies are about Heaven. Revelation 13:6 tells us the satanic beast "opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander His name and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven.' Our enemy slanders three things: God's person, God's people and God's place--namely, Heaven."
"After being forcibly evicted from Heaven (Isaiah 14:12l-15), the devil became bitter not only toward God but toward mankind and toward Heaven itself; the place that was no longer his. It must be maddening for him that we're now entitled to the home he was kicked out of. What better way for the devil and his demons to attack us than to whisper lies about the very place on which God tells us to set our hearts and minds?"
"Satan need not convince us that Heaven doesn't exist. He need only convince us that Heaven is a place of boring, unearthly existence. If we believe that lie, we'll be robbed of our joy and anticipation, we'll set our minds on this life and not the next, and we won't be motivated to share our faith. Why should we share the 'good news' that people can spend eternity in a boring, ghostly place that even we're not looking forward to?"
. . .
"Satan hates the New Heaven and the New Earth as much as a deposed dictator hates the new nation and new government that replaces his. Satan cannot stop Christ's redemptive work, but he can keep us from seeing the breadth and depth of redemption that extends to the earth and beyond [all creation waits groaningly yearning for the manifestation of the sons of God]. He cannot keep Christ from defeating him, but he can persuade us that Christ's victory is only partial, that God will abandon His original plan for mankind and the earth."
[Alcorn quotes John 14:1-3 at the beginning of the INTRODUCTION on page xvii]
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to preapare a PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a PLACE for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be WHERE I am." NIV
verse 2: New Living Translation (©2007)
There is more than enough room in my Father's home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a PLACE for you?
Young's Literal Translation
in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a PLACE for you.
John 14:1-3 (The Message)
The Road
1-4 "Don't let this throw you. You trust God, don't you? Trust me. There is plenty of room for you in my Father's home. If that weren't so, would I have told you that I'm on my way to get a room ready for you? And if I'm on my way to get your room ready, I'll come back and get you so you can live where I live. And you already know the road I'm taking."
John 14:1-3 (Amplified Bible)
1DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.
2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.
Quix: On p25, Alcorn discusses the literal aspects of a PLACE called Hell. And he notes that Jesus says more about Hell than anyone else—and in literal terms.
And on that page, he quotes T.S. Eliot:
Part of his point is that Scripture is talking about REALITIES, not fantasies; not ethereals; not disembodied spiritualized no-WHERE’S but REAL, TANGIBLE, 3 [at least] DIMENSIONAL PLACES.
On p 48, Alcorn notes:
Wayne Grudem points out that Stephen “did not see mere symbols of a state of existence. It was rather that his eyes were opened to see a spiritual dimension of reality which God has hidden from us in this present age, a dimension which none the less really does exist in our space/time universe, and within which Jesus now lives in His physical resurrected body, waiting even now for a time when He will return to earth.”
“I agree with Grudem that the present Heaven is a space/time universe. He may be right that it’s part of our own universe, or it may be in a different universe. It could be a universe next door that’s normally hidden but sometimes opened. In either case, it seems likely that God didn’t merely create a vision for Stephen in order to make Heaven appear physical. Rather, he allowed Stephen to see an intermediate Heaven that was (and is) physical.”
The prophet Elisha asked God to give his servant Gehazi, a glimpse of the invisible realm. He prayed, “’O Lord, open his eyes so he may see.’ Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha” (2 Kings 6:17). . . . “
On p 53, Alcorn notes:
HEAVEN AS SUBSTANCE, EARTH AS SHADOW
“ . . . It [Hebrews] says that earthly priests ‘serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven” (Hebrews 8:5). Moses was told, in building the earthly tabernacle, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain” (Hebrews 8:5). If that which was built after the pattern was physical, might it suggest the original was also physical?”
“The book of Hebrews seems to say that we should see Earth as a derivative realm and Heaven as the source realm. . . . “
.
On p 55, Alcorn quotes from his novel SAFELY HOME
“I know what this is,” Quan said.
“Tell me,” said the Carpenter.
“It’s the substance that casts all those shadows in the other world. The circles there are copies of the spheres here. The squares there are copies of the cubes here. The triangles there are copies of the pyramids here. Earth was a flatland. This is . . . well, the inside is bigger than the outside, isn’t it? How many dimensions are there?”
“Far more than you have seen yet,” the King said, laughing.
This is the Place that defines and gives meaning to all places,” Li Quan said. “I never imagined it would be like this.”52
On p 58, he quotes C.S.Lewis:
“Women sometimes have the problem of trying to judge by artificial light how a dress will look by daylight. That is very like the problem for all of us: to dress our souls not for the electric lights of the present world but for the daylight of the next. The good dress is the one that will face that light. For that light will last longer.”
.
In his intro to chapter 8
THE WHOLE PURPOSE
OF THE CROSS AND THE PRICELESS UNFATHOMABLE DEATH OF THE GOD WHO LOVES US ON THAT CROSS
WAS AND IS FOR
Intimacy such that the celebratory sexual intercoarse of ideal friends and lovers in marriage is labeled a type, a symbol, a metaphor for Christ's love for/intimacy with His Body--The Church.
That's no ethereal--spiritualized hands and gazes across the 'spiritual plane'/'spiritual galactic cluster' nonsense.
THAT'S KNOWING and BEING KNOWN INTENSELY INTIMATELY.
Writing about such otherwise smacks of less intimacy and less reality in relationships than at a formal diplomatic tea at Buckingham Palace between the Queen and the Queenly despised Mrs Michelle Othuga.
God have mercy!
Yes, thankfully, Holy Spirit WILL touch others to stay well clear of the Vatican Cult and the brazenness of its idolatries, Scripture mangling, history mangling, word mangling, political power mongering, blasphemies etc.
I don’t think we can be emphatic in our insistance that 1,000 years always equals XYZ in all cases, contexts etc.
There’s too many unspecified variables involved, imho.
Certainly it’s plausible that God is emphasizing that time is very different from His perspective.
It is plausible, but not certain, that God has set things up in the ‘recent’ [i.e. last umpteen thousand years?] sequence of time such that there has been/will be 7,000 years of the Heavenly Script playing out in our mortal dimension parallel to a 7 day week=1,000 earth years. . . imho.
Certainly the
I AM-NESS of God is beyond time in our time/space dimension.
That’s not the SAME as
time in any sense not existing from God’s perspective.
Cheers!
I would doubt he ever said the words "Only Lutherans are in Heaven" I was talking about my attitude that I am sure, at my young age, was influenced by his teaching. Obviously you know how proud we LCMS members are about our doctrine. SNL's Dana Carvey grew up LCMS and it inspired his character the self righteous church lady.
I am not bashing any of my Pastors. God put them all in my life and I am grateful for their teaching and Holy Spirit calling.
Now to my Pastor discussion. Reading Luther don't Pastors actually have much authority in a local parish. A sort of shepherd of the folk? I bring this up because The LCMS institution is be undermining this relationship in my experience.
xone, has the LCMS taken a position on Colton's story?
Quix, My reading of Scripture is that after the millennium our current universe is burned up with intense heat setting up the new heaven and new earth. Is this your understanding?
I edited out "may be" and replaced it with "is" and the resulting typo.
I see that again we are looking at your attitude, and a desire to have the origin of it begin from the pulpit of the church you attended. A just as likely origin is that it was your attitude, not the preaching. I say this because your current stance isn't based on any orthodox LCMS preaching, so we should lay aside the preaching you received as a causal factor in your current situation.
Regarding 'pride' in LCMS doctrine, you write it so it sounds like it is a dirty word. It isn't a pride in our own accomplishment, it is the same pride that a workman with the finest tool has, or the 'pride' a jeweler has who possesses a truly fine gem. We didn't make it or create it, but we are priveleged to use it and share it with others.
Dan Carvey was funny in the skit, but irrelevant to this discussion.
Reading Luther don't Pastors actually have much authority in a local parish. A sort of shepherd of the folk? I bring this up because The LCMS institution is be undermining this relationship in my experience.
I can't see what you are asking. Luther describes the duties of the called servant of the Word. LCMS has always given pastors lots of 'room' to do their jobs. But the 'power' in a Lutheran congregation is in the laity who decides monetary issues, calling of a pastor, etc.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.