Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
That 1000 years is the “Day” of the Lord, as Peter so well exposed.
Compare and contrast.
Furthermore, never are years used in a symbolic way in this book. If they are symbolic, the symbolism is nowhere explained. The mention of 1,260 days, 42 months, and 3½ years are all literal and not symbolic.Hence, there is no need to take the one thousand years as anything but literal years. --Quix
Gotta love that "literal" hermeneutic.
On a future earthly paradisaical chiliad as "Day of the Lord":
Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! Why would you have the day of the LORD? It is darkness, and not light, as if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall, and a serpent bit him. Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it? --Amos 5
Significant chunks of
what passes for y’all’s eschatology will most likely crash and burn within a year or less, imho.
Times are a changin’ big time.
And it appears that the Preterist, A-Mil, Post-mill and REPLACEMENTARIAN perspective have not a shred of a clue to offer their adherents.
You've done what I've seen on this forum for years.
Mmm. Yes.
Shake the dust off your shoes and move on. He has made his choice.
“end of the universe”? Got me there, I’ve never read anything in the Scriptures about “the end of the universe” so perhaps you can direct me to the Scriptures that speak of it.
Sure seems that way.
However, I just replied with a brief note for the lurkers.
I know.
Pretty loose with the rules of FR in my estimation ... but that is only my estimation.
You said:
“Like I said, you know nothing of dispensationalism. And, by the way, the new hiding spot when one is needed when rejecting Scripture is Harold Camping. You must not have gotten the memo.”
Actually, I did.
On the other hand it may be the Arnold Fruechtenbaum is your Harold Camping.
Feel free not to respond.
On the other hand it may be the Arnold Fruechtenbaum is your Harold Camping.Feel free not to respond.
LOL.
Mr. Camping has added to the gospel as a condition of salvation that you must hold his view of eschatology.
I do not doubt that some of the dispensational party hold similar views.
Extra Scofieldism Nulla Salus.
>> “end of the universe”? Got me there <<
.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
If you see a contradiction in 1000 literal years constituting “the day (or era) of the Lord” then you need to have your “eyes” checked.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
If you believe the physical earth and heavens is to be destroyed then you must also accept a repeat of Genesis and the creation of heaven and earth anew.
And the end of the universe wouldn't leave much for the meek to inherit as Psalm 37:11 says,
“But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
Your church, not the Church. If your membership is confused as you seem to be, I am not surprised.
Part of what I am exploring is the LCMS also dead. (sorry)
Don't be sorry, if that is the way you see it, but have the integrity and honor since you seem unable to follow the doctrine, to resign your position as a leader and move your church home. This thread is proof enough that you have made a change in your beliefs that is incompatible with your confirmation vow. As an elder, if you espouse this, you have an obligation to resign, do it before you sow confusion amongst your congregation and those you serve.
He was the first one to get me to think outside my preconceived notions. Maybe that is why I started drinking
A rousing endorsement.
You may be right, but what if it did, and how do you know?
You said he was a good pator, being familiar with them, I know, in any case it isn't doctrinal to preach what you say you ended up with. So either he was unfaithful, or you were. AFAIK, he hasn't posted a vanity of this type, you have, so I going to have to go with you for Heterodoxy for $100 Alex.
I totally agree! Once we are ripe God picks us and takes us home.
Again you miss the point.
How is Job's faith and God's Grace separated? Do you know anything about Grace scripturally? Are you sure you went to a LCMS church? Even the liberal pastors teach this. You say you were taught Luther's Small Catechism, did you ever read it? No one could have objectively read it and come away with a statement like this. Now c'mon marbren were you ever in the LCMS? Your scriptural foundation is demonstrably weak, you see no connection between faith and grace, and you have demonstrated an inability to follow doctrine you declared at your 'confirmation' you would. I've never seen an LCMS 'lutheran' like you, and I've been one much longer than you've been alive, and this is most certainly true!
I Agree your perspective on Camping may be the reality, I was only speculating. Also, I was backhandedly trying to affirm my OP thesis that Camping’s problem is due to his background in replacement theology and not understanding the role of Israel in the end times we are in.
After He left Pastor #1 came in, He was the fine Pastor who confirmed me and taught me that WE LUTHERANS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE THE TRUTH! and all about judgment day and replacement theology. Early on under him our church burned down was built in a beautiful new location and around 1961 or so we joined the LCMS.
How is Job's faith and God's Grace separated?
Many people on FR do not like my new perspective on Job 1:1. I would not have liked it my self about 2 years ago. It came from a Bible Study teaching on Job of my current Pastor #5 whom I serve as his elder presently.
Learning from my Best Friend during college days and more recently from Pastor #5 that God is bigger than our preconceived notions, I tried to listen to his teaching with an open mind. Job is COOL! He starts off believing OF God in the end he believes IN God. Sort of like my Faith walk, such as it is.
This is one truth the world can learn from us Lutherans. God's Grace, not Our works is what saves us. Even the decision in faith to accept our Lord Jesus Christ as Our Lord and Savior is a Work of God's Grace( a bit of a mystery as we do like to take credit for our justification). The free will we have only comes after we are justified (Born Again). Unbelievers have no free will as they are slaves to sin. A slave does not have free will. Believers are slaves to Christ. We Believers do have the free will to resist the Holy Spirit, but why? We are slaves to Christ He is responsible for us! If we do resist the Holy Spirit God has ways to bring us back in line. THANK YOU JESUS!
I have not either. We LCMS do tend to be group think and cookie cutter types. BTW when Pastor #5 came into my life about 8 years ago He also taught replacement theology and judgment day like Luther. He felt bad for the poor Palestinians and was antisemitic. He did not teach me the truth about Israel.
You’re missing the message completely.
Time and space are an illusion that will cease.
What comes afterward is the true reality that we cannot presently sense nor survive. That is why our bodies must change; matter is inherently corruptible, and is not compatible with the relm of God. Time is an illusion, as Christ aptly described in his assertion: “Before Abraham was, I Am.”
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