Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
Posted on 02/05/2011 1:21:23 PM PST by topcat54
In others words, when God begins to bring the Jews back into their land He gave them, Christ will return! The phrase “will return” is omitted from most modern translations of the Bible since the Masoretic text (upon which the majority of modern translations of the Old Testament are based upon) and the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) do not include it. But the Dead Sea Scrolls copied some 150 years before the birth of Christ and over 1,000 years older than any previously discovered manuscript of the Bible includes this very phrase! The passage reads as follows:
(Excerpt) Read more at bibleprophecyblog.com ...
Like most futurists, the author fails to account for all the conditions of restoration on the part of Israel, and explain how precisely this passage is related to modern events, esp. modern Israel.
The author makes a big deal out of the phrase, “and will return and gather thee from all the nations,” claiming it refers to the second coming, however, he ignore the fact that this same language was applicable to the Babylonian Captivity when God restored Israel, and at which time the Lord did not physically “return.”
Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.
"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
8.The older covenant was never intended by God to be permanent, but was seen as giving way to a new covenant.
When ever I see a definitive statement like this ESPECIALLY when it purports to claim knowing what GOD intended, I wonder about the writer.
“The [Jewish] “charedi” (ultra-Orthodox) position contends that we can grant no religious significance to the State, and some even view the State as a negative phenomenon.” - Harav Yehuda Amital
Are you suggesting that God did intend for the old covenant to be permanent, or we can't know because there are no definitive statements in the Bible on the subject?
I don’t pretend to be so all knowing that I can state as FACT what GOD intended.
All I know is that God punished the Israelites for their idolatry. Yet he gave them the promised land.
God sent his Son to SAVE the Gentiles from their idolatry.
However, Christians are making the same mistakes the Jews made, worshiping the things of the EARTH. Not a golden bull, but just as offensive in Gods eyes. HE alone is to be worshiped.
To believe that Jews will somehow be abandoned by GOD is irrational. HE never has.
Christians are becoming the target of evil from the one third of the world bringing death and destruction.
We can only pray that GOD will show us the same mercy he gave to the Jews.
Don't forget Zech 12-14, one of the most important prophecies wrt Israel's restoration and blessing.
Are you questioning God’s Word? Read Hebrews. It is as clear as a bell. The Old Testament (i.e. Old Covenant) must be interpreted and understood in the light of the New Testament. (ie New Covenant) It’s that simple.
The modern heretical teaching of dispensation (established 1830) reads the Old Testament without any regard for what the New Testament states. Check it out on your own. Don’t be deceived.
What is irrational is equating God's intention for Jewish people with the land of Israel. God has not abandoned the Jews. The evidence is all around us since countless numbers of Jewish people have come to accept their Messiah Jesus, and have been grafted into the Root. So it's quite obvious that God has not abandoned the Jews nor ever intended to abandon the Jews.
The sad fact is that many people, including Christian people, can't figure that out and keep insisting that God's plan for Jewish people is somehow tied to the land. God's plan was and is to make them into true children of Abraham, and to have the faith of Abraham, who was looking for a heavenly land.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. … But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (Heb. 11:8-10,16)The old covenant was a means to an end. It was not an end in itself. The sacrificial system, the priesthood, the temple, and all the ceremonies we types to point us to the Salvation of God, Jesus Christ (Luke 24:27). They were never intended by God to go beyond the time of Messiah.
In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8:13)What does “obsolete” mean? Why would God give us a new covenant if He still had plans for the old? Hebrews gives us the answer. It was all passing away once Messiah appeared. It was no longer needed. Now Jews, as well as gentiles, could come to God via the Messiah without the need for the ceremonies of the old covenant.
Do you see the difference, that God has not abandoned the Jewish people? Just changed focus from the nationalistic/cultic religion of the old covenant to the universal “one new man” of the new? Does it make sense?
Yes, I am aware of that position. Why do you suppose so many Christians are so excited about the spiritual significance of modern, secular Israel?
What OT prophecies would you say are dealing with Israel's restoration that resulted from Christ's first coming and establishment of the kingdom of God?
I also do not pretend to know everything of what God has intended, from what I know in scripture you are correct God has never abandoned the Jews, but to be a little bit picky on the technicality's of the issue, he has never abandoned the true Jews, but he did abandoned the false Jews. Here is a few scripture from a neat book I got a long time ago, in the book it gives about a dozen classifications of true Israelites and false Israelites, One of them is titled "The Jews" underneath that title is these scriptures to for true and false Jews:
A. Israelites are Jews Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8-9, Zec. 8:22,23 B. Disobedient Israelites are not Jews Rom 2:28, Rev 2:9, 3:9 C. Christians are Jews Rom 2:29
Taken from the book "The Church is Israel Now" by Charles D. Provan
YOU are way off base. Reread my reply.I don’t attempt to be all knowing as to GODs intentions. I am merely pointing to his actions.
I realize some must hold on to their preconceived biases in hopes of claiming some favoritism by GOD. Frankly I think the Gentiles have been an abysmal failure if you are using the worldly standard.
I am NOT deceived, Hebrews was written by St. Paul to the Jewish Christians of Palestine.
He is telling them that Christianity completes the message of the Prophets and makes perfect everything that was of value in the Mosaic Law.
Christians (some) have followed the way of the world. I find even the slightest acceptence of the religion of Earth an affront to God. But then maybe he will for the first time take second place to the Earth, Wind and Fire.
We are told that God is a jealous God. Maybe it is time people start evaluating their own PERSONAL relationship with GOD. And do they really keep their Faith pure, or polute it with Enviro-worship, celebrity-worship, pol leader worship. Etc etc.
I think we are discussing at cross-purposes here. I understand what you are saying. I guess I am focusing on the condition of Man as we speak.
Christ was God on earth. He only had 120 followers at the time of his death. Yet the idols of the Gentiles fell at his feet as the WORD was spread.
My point is that man in his sinfulness has created new idols to replace GOD. Not unlike the Israelites as Moses received the Commandments from GOD.
Will GOD show us the same grace that he showed the Jews? (promised land).
But, it is my thoughts that God was reaching the Gentiles for salvation.
Yet we are now turning our backs on him thru the acceptance of the religion of man.
I do not believe that GOD will not allow this to continue without punishment. It is just a matter of what form the punishment takes.
Will it be 7 years of suffering under the Hell of the Islamists?
Will it be 7 years of natural disasters to bring us to our knees.
I personally believe we are in the end times. That we had better be concerned about our own salvation and exactly why are we as a society willing to accept those things that are an insult to God.
Would you happen to know off the top of your head which scriptures in the Old Testiment specifically contain GODS words regarding the Messiah to come?
Cognitive dissonance: People are biased to think of their view of the Bible as correct, despite any contrary evidence.
There is danger: One desires a certain explanation, but it seems incorrect. Dissonance is then reduced by hating that which doesn’t conform to one’s views.
Actually, I find the the Christian obsession with an imminently rebuilt Temple even stranger.
According to someone's rule, I know I'm not supposed to answer a question with a question, but what do you mean by “ GODS words?” The Old Testament is God's Word, all of it.
Isaiah 53 is generally taken as words speaking of Messiah. Many of the Psalms are Messianic; 2, 23, 24, 40, 72, 89, 91, 110, and more.
lol ... I think you realize full well that is a loaded question. You and I have two totally different ideas concerning what the restoration of Israel means.
But ...
What we can agree on is that, as you pointed out (in number 10 from your list), Israel's restoration and blessing are associated with their repentance and obedience. I am not aware of any theological persuasion that would say that the first coming of Christ, the "coming in AD70," or a regathering in 1948 accomplished a true OT restoration and blessing for national Israel; as they are still in disobedience. Even some of my dispensational brothers get this wrong wrt to the 1948 event.
So the answer to your question is ... technically, no prophecy concerning the first coming of Christ relates to a restoration of Israel ... since no restoration took place.
However if you replace the OT concept of national restoration with the NT concept of individual redemption then you can shoehorn that concept of individual redemption into any OT prophecy relating to the coming of Christ and claim national restoration fulfillment.
Thank you. That was the one I was looking for.
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