Posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:20 AM PST by markomalley
ROME, January 17, 2011 – In illustrating the life of Saint Catherine of Genoa, at the general audience last Wednesday, Benedict XVI took the thought of this saint as a point of departure to explain what purgatory is.
During the second half of the 15th century, the time of Catherine, the contemporary image of purgatory was like the one depicted above. It was the mountain of purification sung of by Dante in the "Divine Comedy."
That purgatory is a physical place is a very ancient conviction, which endured until recent times.
But not for Catherine. For her, the fire of purgatory was essentially thought of as an interior fire.
And Benedict XVI has completely agreed with her.
Some in the media have covered this catechesis of pope Joseph Ratzinger, placing it among the good news. As if the pope had decreed not so much the interiority of purgatory, but its wholesome disappearance. A disappearance, moreover, that to a large extent has already taken place in the current preaching of the Church, as of several decades ago.
But the teaching of Benedict XVI says exactly the opposite. Not the disappearance of purgatory, but its true reality.
Almost no one has recalled this. But Benedict XVI has written his most powerful pages on purgatory in the encyclical "Spe Salvi," the most personal of the three encyclicals he has published so far, the only one planned and written entirely by him alone, from the first line to the last.
Below is presented the passage of the catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa relating to purgatory.
And immediately afterward, the paragraphs from "Spe Salvi" also dedicated to purgatory, against the background of the judgment of God, which "is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace."
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"THIS IS PURGATORY, AN INTERIOR FIRE"
by Benedict XVI
From the general audience of January 12, 2011
[...] Catherine's thought on purgatory, for which she is particularly known, is condensed in the last two parts of the book mentioned at the beginning: "Treatise on Purgatory" and "Dialogues on the Soul and Body."
It is important to observe that, in her mystical experience, Catherine never had specific revelations on purgatory or on souls that are being purified there. However, in the writings inspired by our saint purgatory is a central element, and the way of describing it has original characteristics in relation to her era.
The first original feature refers to the "place" of the purification of souls. In her time [purgatory] was presented primarily with recourse to images connected to space: There was thought of a certain space where purgatory would be found. For Catherine, instead, purgatory is not represented as an element of the landscape of the core of the earth; it is a fire that is not exterior but interior.
This is purgatory, an interior fire. The saint speaks of the soul's journey of purification to full communion with God, based on her own experience of profound sorrow for the sins committed, in contrast to the infinite love of God. We have heard about the moment of her conversion, when Catherine suddenly felt God's goodness, the infinite distance of her life from this goodness and a burning fire within her. And this is the fire that purifies, it is the interior fire of purgatory.
Here also there is an original feature in relation to the thought of the era. She does not begin, in fact, from the beyond to narrate the torments of purgatory – as was usual at that time and perhaps also today – and then indicate the path for purification or conversion. Instead our saint begins from her own interior experience of her life on the path to eternity.
The soul, says Catherine, appears before God still bound to the desires and the sorrow that derive from sin, and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the Beatific Vision of God. Catherine affirms that God is so pure and holy that the soul with stains of sin cannot be in the presence of the Divine Majesty. And we also realize how far we are, how full we are of so many things, so that we cannot see God. The soul is conscious of the immense love and perfect justice of God and, in consequence, suffers for not having responded correctly and perfectly to that love, and that is why the love itself of God becomes a flame. Love itself purifies it from its dross of sin.
Theological and mystical sources typical of the era can be found in Catherine's work. Particularly there is an image from Dionysius the Areopagite: that of the golden thread that unites the human heart with God himself. When God has purified man, he ties him with a very fine thread of gold, which is his love, and attracts him to himself with such strong affection that man remains as "overcome and conquered and altogether outside himself." Thus the human heart is invaded by the love of God, which becomes the only guide, the sole motor of his existence.
This situation of elevation to God and of abandonment to his will, expressed in the image of the thread, is used by Catherine to express the action of the divine light on souls in purgatory, light that purifies them and elevates them to the splendors of the shining rays of God.
Dear friends, the saints, in their experience of union with God, reach such profound "knowledge" of the divine mysteries, in which love and knowledge are fused, that they are of help to theologians themselves in their task of study, of "intelligentia fidei," of "intelligentia" of the mysteries of the faith, of real deepening in the mysteries, for example, of what purgatory is. [...]
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"HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE..."
by Benedict XVI
From the encyclical "Spe Salvi" of November 30, 2007
[...] I am convinced that the question of justice constitutes the essential argument, or in any case the strongest argument, in favour of faith in eternal life. The purely individual need for a fulfilment that is denied to us in this life, for an everlasting love that we await, is certainly an important motive for believing that man was made for eternity; but only in connection with the impossibility that the injustice of history should be the final word does the necessity for Christ's return and for new life become fully convincing.
44. To protest against God in the name of justice is not helpful. A world without God is a world without hope (cf. Eph 2:12). Only God can create justice. And faith gives us the certainty that he does so. The image of the Last Judgement is not primarily an image of terror, but an image of hope; for us it may even be the decisive image of hope. Is it not also a frightening image? I would say: it is an image that evokes responsibility, an image, therefore, of that fear of which Saint Hilary spoke when he said that all our fear has its place in love.
God is justice and creates justice. This is our consolation and our hope. And in his justice there is also grace. This we know by turning our gaze to the crucified and risen Christ. Both these things – justice and grace – must be seen in their correct inner relationship. Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right. It is not a sponge which wipes everything away, so that whatever someone has done on earth ends up being of equal value. Dostoevsky, for example, was right to protest against this kind of Heaven and this kind of grace in his novel "The Brothers Karamazov."
Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened. [...] In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.
45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God.
The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory. We do not need to examine here the complex historical paths of this development; it is enough to ask what it actually means.
With death, our life-choice becomes definitive?our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours?people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are.
46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people – we may suppose – there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil?much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.
What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God's judgement according to each person's particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images?simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it.
Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15).
In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.
47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.
In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.
It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning?it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ.
The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice – the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all.
The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together – judgement and grace – that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).
48. A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church.
The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death?this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon?
Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other – my prayer for him – can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God's time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain.
In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well. [...]
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The complete text of the encyclical:
> "Spe Salvi"
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The complete text of Benedict XVI's catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa:
> General audience of January 12, 2011
Nice try at deceptively implying I did that Mark. But certain tactics often used on these threads are well known ...the above is one of them. You can certainly twist Pauls words to mean anything you want. But I will stick with what Jesus Christ said and did....for...
What I did say was: either we are complete in Christ, as Christ says we are... or not at all. And to elaborate further.... ..... either we have the fullness of Christ...or not...... Either His words "It is finished" means what He said... or it means nothing at all.
There were and are no half way measures with Christ..nor will there ever be. He always means what He clearly says.
Who said it’s a half-way measure? Who said it’s a second chance?
You did, not me.
You see, such tactics are well known on these threads (putting words in somebody’s mouth that were never spoken)
But, hey, you believe what you want to believe. When the blinders are removed in the end, you’ll see if you were right or not.
I guess maybe I should ask a more fundamental question. Do you even know what the doctrine of Purgatory is?
I stopped reading right there ...
I almost did too, but then I am quite familiar with the New Age Mysticism Gurus and what they claim to know...and this type of experience she claims copies that. Most people who claim mystical experiences are deluded...and they all think it's from God. They all forget "the enemy of mens souls goes about like a roaring Lion seeking who He may devour." Take note that he has to 'find' those who are susceptable to his deceptions because many Christians do have an understanding of the tricks of his trade... "we are not ignorant of his devices". Anyone who places faith in people who make claims to mystical experieces is walking on the edge of the dark side...and cannot be trusted to have the ability to discern. If they had deiscernment they would not be walking on that edge...rather they would flee from it.
Paul’s the hero now? Not the goat?
What about when he says....?
Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Seems to me that the RC church pronounced anathemas on people who believe that. That’s part of what got Luther in so much trouble with it.
Jesus says:
“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions....”
Further....What happens to all the people that are supposedly in this mythical place when Jesus comes and their purging is not complete?
And what of those who never entered purgatory to be purged when he comes back, how do they get accepted?
When Jesus, (our great High Priest), went to Heaven He sat down at the right hand of the Father.....Hebrews teaches us the Priest never sets down until the task ‘is complete.’
Jesus completed all that we could not do nor can we ever do.
Is that anything like a "man made climate change" deniar? I ask because I believe pergatory is every bit as real as man made climate change.
Did they not once accuse us of placing Paul above Jesus? I guess they’re arguments shift with the direction of the wind!
The KJV of the Bible didn’t fall from the heavens already bound and printed for your perusal.
The original manuscripts had no paragraphs, verses, or commas.
You are basically saying that a translation with all its punctuation is straight from the mouth of Jesus.
There was no punctuation back then. A translator, maybe biased, maybe not, put in the punctuation for you.
Does this mean it’s not the Word of God? Of course not. But don’t be so sure that yours is the only correct translation. After all you are missing some books.
1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be." 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." 23But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
If God does not count our sin against us, we don't need to pay for them.
No.
.
.
Not once. MANY times.
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Absolutely. As a Catholic I believe this.
That's what you get for insisting on praying only to Jesus. I'm waiting for them to really go off the deep end and begin sacrificing goats to Zeus.
Don’t waste your time. I’ve provided you with the Scriptures. Sayuncledave has provided a far more comprehensive list of the Scriptures.
If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.
Endless arguments are just not worth the bandwidth.
I know that both you two will want to have the last word, so go for it. But if you want to have an endless argument, I don’t plan to entertain your wishes. I’d rather spend my time doing something at least a little bit profitable.
God Bless!
Thank you for the scripture on Abraham. Interesting that it was his faith not the law which counted him righteous.
I believe God ment it when He said that Christs’ work on our behalf...set us “Free” from the law and sin...and we walk by faith in Him. How can one know this freedom of walking with the Lord in our life if they are still trying to walk according to the law?
Therefore I do understand why Catholics have a need to follow Rome....on one hand they might understand Jesus has set them free...but are unable to recognize that freedom for abiding by all the requirements of their church which stands in the way of knowing anything but laws, rules, rituals etc. All which give them a false sense of security....but security non-the-less.
It’s like the Titanic captain, (pope), and all those who built it saying it could never sink. Well educated and highly experienced professionals assured any critics that this was simply not possible...and they had the stats to prove it, and followed all the rules established. The people then put all their trust in them AND the ship that was carrying them. And we know the end of that story.
The people wanted to believe this was so despite the critics...and many even denied the ship was sinking at the time that it was.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no one can boast.
What I don’t believe is all the extraneous nonsense that has been added to Scripture and outside Scripture since then.
The opinions of those whom the RC church considers church *fathers* is irrelevant to the truth of God’s Word. Any doctrine built on them is built on shifting sand.
Appealing to the *traditions* that Paul passed on to the believers does not give anyone, then or now, license to fabricate tales of what may have happened that nobody can verify or disprove and demand that people accept them as truth.
If Catholics want to believe them, that’s their prerogative, but they have no business making unsubstantiated claims about the veracity of it and demanding he acceptance of it by others who have not placed themselves under the authority of Rome.
Catholics can follow their leaders into error if they want, but shouldn’t be criticizing others for not following them off that spiritual cliff.
God asks us to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. When we do so and desire Him above all else...do you honestly think that punctuation, commas, paragraphs etc. would stand in His way of revealing what He wants to say to us thru the scriptures? Is He not bigger than than these? Since He moved men to write it don’t you think He could equally move men to understand it as well?
Which is bizarre because there is no Catholic that I know of who is sure of where he's going when he dies. They expect to find out when they get there, and by then it will be too late to change their minds.
It is a control thing. The nice thing about works if the ability to tick off a laundry list of works to appeal to. But our works, the wages for what we do, is only death. They never lead to life. They can't.
Ever.
Luke 18 :9-18 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
And who did Jesus say was righteous? The one with the works who believed in God, who did it his way, like Gain?
Or the one with the trust, who threw himself on the mercy of the court, so to speak and did it God's way, through faith, like Able?
“If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.”
Actually, it IS the Word of God that is being believed when the falsehood of “purgatory’ is denied! The twisting of 1 Cor. 3:15 to fit the Roman Church’s “doctrine” does not truth make by any stretch.
If “purgatory” existed, there would be plain teaching about it from God’s Word, wouldn’t you think? No, no, no... not what you’re going to quote, but PLAIN TEACHING...maybe from Christ? We know about salvation, justification, sanctification — all clearly taught and exegetically provable. Not so with “purgatory.”
So if you wish to do something at least a little bit profitable, try reading the truth of God’s Word and see past the falsehood of the Roman Church.
God bless...
Hoss
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