Posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:20 AM PST by markomalley
Nice try at deceptively implying I did that Mark. But certain tactics often used on these threads are well known ...the above is one of them. You can certainly twist Pauls words to mean anything you want. But I will stick with what Jesus Christ said and did....for...
What I did say was: either we are complete in Christ, as Christ says we are... or not at all. And to elaborate further.... ..... either we have the fullness of Christ...or not...... Either His words "It is finished" means what He said... or it means nothing at all.
There were and are no half way measures with Christ..nor will there ever be. He always means what He clearly says.
Who said it’s a half-way measure? Who said it’s a second chance?
You did, not me.
You see, such tactics are well known on these threads (putting words in somebody’s mouth that were never spoken)
But, hey, you believe what you want to believe. When the blinders are removed in the end, you’ll see if you were right or not.
I guess maybe I should ask a more fundamental question. Do you even know what the doctrine of Purgatory is?
I stopped reading right there ...
I almost did too, but then I am quite familiar with the New Age Mysticism Gurus and what they claim to know...and this type of experience she claims copies that. Most people who claim mystical experiences are deluded...and they all think it's from God. They all forget "the enemy of mens souls goes about like a roaring Lion seeking who He may devour." Take note that he has to 'find' those who are susceptable to his deceptions because many Christians do have an understanding of the tricks of his trade... "we are not ignorant of his devices". Anyone who places faith in people who make claims to mystical experieces is walking on the edge of the dark side...and cannot be trusted to have the ability to discern. If they had deiscernment they would not be walking on that edge...rather they would flee from it.
Paul’s the hero now? Not the goat?
What about when he says....?
Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Seems to me that the RC church pronounced anathemas on people who believe that. That’s part of what got Luther in so much trouble with it.
Jesus says:
“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions....”
Further....What happens to all the people that are supposedly in this mythical place when Jesus comes and their purging is not complete?
And what of those who never entered purgatory to be purged when he comes back, how do they get accepted?
When Jesus, (our great High Priest), went to Heaven He sat down at the right hand of the Father.....Hebrews teaches us the Priest never sets down until the task ‘is complete.’
Jesus completed all that we could not do nor can we ever do.
Is that anything like a "man made climate change" deniar? I ask because I believe pergatory is every bit as real as man made climate change.
Did they not once accuse us of placing Paul above Jesus? I guess they’re arguments shift with the direction of the wind!
The KJV of the Bible didn’t fall from the heavens already bound and printed for your perusal.
The original manuscripts had no paragraphs, verses, or commas.
You are basically saying that a translation with all its punctuation is straight from the mouth of Jesus.
There was no punctuation back then. A translator, maybe biased, maybe not, put in the punctuation for you.
Does this mean it’s not the Word of God? Of course not. But don’t be so sure that yours is the only correct translation. After all you are missing some books.
1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be." 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." 23But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
If God does not count our sin against us, we don't need to pay for them.
No.
.
.
Not once. MANY times.
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Absolutely. As a Catholic I believe this.
That's what you get for insisting on praying only to Jesus. I'm waiting for them to really go off the deep end and begin sacrificing goats to Zeus.
Don’t waste your time. I’ve provided you with the Scriptures. Sayuncledave has provided a far more comprehensive list of the Scriptures.
If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.
Endless arguments are just not worth the bandwidth.
I know that both you two will want to have the last word, so go for it. But if you want to have an endless argument, I don’t plan to entertain your wishes. I’d rather spend my time doing something at least a little bit profitable.
God Bless!
Thank you for the scripture on Abraham. Interesting that it was his faith not the law which counted him righteous.
I believe God ment it when He said that Christs’ work on our behalf...set us “Free” from the law and sin...and we walk by faith in Him. How can one know this freedom of walking with the Lord in our life if they are still trying to walk according to the law?
Therefore I do understand why Catholics have a need to follow Rome....on one hand they might understand Jesus has set them free...but are unable to recognize that freedom for abiding by all the requirements of their church which stands in the way of knowing anything but laws, rules, rituals etc. All which give them a false sense of security....but security non-the-less.
It’s like the Titanic captain, (pope), and all those who built it saying it could never sink. Well educated and highly experienced professionals assured any critics that this was simply not possible...and they had the stats to prove it, and followed all the rules established. The people then put all their trust in them AND the ship that was carrying them. And we know the end of that story.
The people wanted to believe this was so despite the critics...and many even denied the ship was sinking at the time that it was.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no one can boast.
What I don’t believe is all the extraneous nonsense that has been added to Scripture and outside Scripture since then.
The opinions of those whom the RC church considers church *fathers* is irrelevant to the truth of God’s Word. Any doctrine built on them is built on shifting sand.
Appealing to the *traditions* that Paul passed on to the believers does not give anyone, then or now, license to fabricate tales of what may have happened that nobody can verify or disprove and demand that people accept them as truth.
If Catholics want to believe them, that’s their prerogative, but they have no business making unsubstantiated claims about the veracity of it and demanding he acceptance of it by others who have not placed themselves under the authority of Rome.
Catholics can follow their leaders into error if they want, but shouldn’t be criticizing others for not following them off that spiritual cliff.
God asks us to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. When we do so and desire Him above all else...do you honestly think that punctuation, commas, paragraphs etc. would stand in His way of revealing what He wants to say to us thru the scriptures? Is He not bigger than than these? Since He moved men to write it don’t you think He could equally move men to understand it as well?
Which is bizarre because there is no Catholic that I know of who is sure of where he's going when he dies. They expect to find out when they get there, and by then it will be too late to change their minds.
It is a control thing. The nice thing about works if the ability to tick off a laundry list of works to appeal to. But our works, the wages for what we do, is only death. They never lead to life. They can't.
Ever.
Luke 18 :9-18 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
And who did Jesus say was righteous? The one with the works who believed in God, who did it his way, like Gain?
Or the one with the trust, who threw himself on the mercy of the court, so to speak and did it God's way, through faith, like Able?
“If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.”
Actually, it IS the Word of God that is being believed when the falsehood of “purgatory’ is denied! The twisting of 1 Cor. 3:15 to fit the Roman Church’s “doctrine” does not truth make by any stretch.
If “purgatory” existed, there would be plain teaching about it from God’s Word, wouldn’t you think? No, no, no... not what you’re going to quote, but PLAIN TEACHING...maybe from Christ? We know about salvation, justification, sanctification — all clearly taught and exegetically provable. Not so with “purgatory.”
So if you wish to do something at least a little bit profitable, try reading the truth of God’s Word and see past the falsehood of the Roman Church.
God bless...
Hoss
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