You knock down one heresy; and another one pops up!
Yet another MORMON 'apologist' bites the dust...
Posted on 12/26/2010 5:29:46 PM PST by Colofornian
Is Mormonism Christian? This may seem like a puzzling question to many Mormons as well as to some Christians. Mormons will note that they include the Bible among the four books which they recognize as Scripture, and that belief in Jesus Christ is central to their faith, as evidenced by their official name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, many Christians have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing Christian hymns and are favorably impressed with the Mormon commitment to high moral standards and strong families. Doesn’t it follow that Mormonism is Christian?
"To fairly and accurately resolve this question we need to carefully compare the basic doctrines of the Mormon religion with the basic doctrines of historic, biblical Christianity."
To fairly and accurately resolve this question we need to carefully compare the basic doctrines of the Mormon religion with the basic doctrines of historic, biblical Christianity. To represent the Mormon position we have relied on the following well-known Mormon doctrinal books, the first three of which are published by the Mormon Church: Gospel Principles (1997), Achieving a Celestial Marriage (1976), and A Study of the Articles of Faith (1979) by Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage, as well as Doctrines of Salvation (3 vols.) by the tenth Mormon President and prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed., 1979) by Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
1. Is There More Than One True God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that there is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; 44:6,8; 45:21,22; 46:9; Mark 12:29-34).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there are many Gods (Book of Abraham 4:3ff), and that we can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20; Gospel Principles, p. 245; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 130). It also teaches that those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p. 302).
2. Was God Once a Man Like Us?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that God is Spirit (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 6:15,16), He is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Romans 1:22, 23), and has always (eternally) existed as God — all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present (Psalm 90:2; 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:28; Luke 1:37).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321). Indeed, the Mormon Church teaches that God himself has a father, and a grandfather, ad infinitum (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Mormon Doctrine, p. 577).
3. Are Jesus and Satan Spirit Brothers?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Jesus is the unique Son of God; he has always existed as God, and is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father (John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9). While never less than God, at the appointed time He laid aside the glory He shared with the Father (John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11) and was made flesh for our salvation; His incarnation was accomplished through being conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (D&C 93:21; Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51; Gospel Principles, p. 11-13; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742; Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, p. 4; Robert L. Millet, The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, p. 31). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus, all angels, Lucifer, all demons, and all human beings are originally spirit brothers and sisters (Abraham 3:22-27; Moses 4:1-2; Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
4. Is God a Trinity?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are not separate Gods or separate beings, but are distinct Persons within the one Triune Godhead. Throughout the New Testament the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father are separately identified as and act as God (Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14); yet at the same time the Bible teaches that these three are only one God (see point 1).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577), and that the Son and Holy Ghost are the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a celestial wife (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 649).
5. Was The Sin Of Adam and Eve a Great Evil Or a Great Blessing?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the disobedience of our first parents Adam and Eve was a great evil. Through their fall sin entered the world, bringing all human beings under condemnation and death. Thus we are born with a sinful nature, and will be judged for the sins we commit as individuals. (Ezekiel 18:1-20; Romans 5:12-21).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Adam’s sin was "a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us" (Gospel Principles, p. 33; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 2:25; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 114-115).
6. Can We Make Ourselves Worthy Before God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1,5) and are powerless to save ourselves. By grace alone, apart from self-righteous works, God forgives our sins and makes us worthy to live in His presence (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6). Our part is only to cling to Christ in heartfelt faith. (However, it is certainly true that without the evidence of changed conduct, a person’s testimony of faith in Christ must be questioned; salvation by grace alone through faith, does not mean we can live as we please — Romans 6:1-4).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that eternal life in the presence of God (which it terms "exaltation in the celestial kingdom") must be earned through obedience to all the commands of the Mormon Church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals. Works are a requirement for salvation (entrance into the "celestial kingdom") — Gospel Principles, p. 303-304; Pearl of Great Price — Third Article of Faith; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 339, 671; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 25:23).
7. Does Christ's Atoning Death Benefit Those Who Reject Him?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ on the cross was to provide the complete solution for humankind’s sin problem. However, those who reject God’s grace in this life will have no part in this salvation but are under the judgment of God for eternity (John 3:36; Hebrews 9:27; 1 John 5:11-12).
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals (Gospel Principles, pp. 74-75; Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).
8. Is The Bible The Unique and Final Word of God?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the Bible is the unique, final and infallible Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2; 2 Peter 1:21) and that it will stand forever (1 Peter 1:23-25). God’s providential preservation of the text of the Bible was marvelously illustrated in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted, is missing many "plain and precious parts" and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel (Book of Mormon — 1 Nephi 13:26-29; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 190-191).
9. Did The Early Church Fall Into Total Apostasy?
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the true Church was divinely established by Jesus and could never and will never disappear from the earth (Matthew 16:18; John 15:16; 17:11). Christians acknowledge that there have been times of corruption and apostasy within the Church, but believe there has always been a remnant that held fast to the biblical essentials.
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there was a great and total apostasy of the Church as established by Jesus Christ; this state of apostasy "still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" of the Mormon Church (Gospel Principles, pp. 105-106; Mormon Doctrine, p. 44).
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Conclusion: The above points in italics constitute the common gospel believed by all orthodox Christians through the ages regardless of denominational labels. On the other hand, some new religions such as Mormonism claim to be Christian, but accept as Scripture writings outside of the Bible, teach doctrines that contradict the Bible, and hold to beliefs completely foreign to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles.
Mormons share with orthodox Christians some important moral precepts from the Bible. However, the above points are examples of the many fundamental and irreconcilable differences between historic, biblical Christianity and Mormonism. While these differences do not keep us from being friendly with Mormons, we cannot consider them brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9). Based on the evidence presented above, we believe Mormonism represents just such a counterfeit gospel.
It has been pointed out that if one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established — the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church. By the same token, if the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?
If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.
Statements of 5 Christian Denominations on Mormonism
Christian churches teach belief in God as an eternal, self-existent, immortal being, unfettered by corporeal limitations and unchanging in both character and nature. In recent years, several Christian denominations have made studies of Mormon teaching and come to the conclusion that there are irreconcilable differences between LDS doctrine and Christian beliefs based on the Bible.
• Statement of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod
• Statement of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
• Statement of the Roman Catholic Church
• Statement of the Southern Baptist Convention
• Statement of the United Methodist Church
..
There you go again: trying to use FACTS with folks who RELY upon their FEELINGS.
and How honest are you prepared to be, Mormon?
Why do you and others of your ilk make the unfounded assumption that I am a Mormon? Do you believe that only another Mormon could question the hateful anti-Mormon screeds?
You assume to know things without evidence - and that is what about 99% of this thread is about: Pontifical assumptions.
“Can you or anyone else name ONE TIME in the history of FR that any Mormon has posted - ONCE, let alone with the regularity of these LDS bashing ones - a thread meant for the denigration/refutation of ANY other religion?”
For the record, it has happened.
Your “Hey! We’re victims! We’re picked on!” post overlooks one simple,
irrefutable fact.
+50,000 mormons go door to door world-wide every day,
telling Christians that their Christian Churches
are false and that the mormonic cult is the true
“restoration” of Christianity.
Right...
Yet you are here whining to the Religion Moderator
that some FReepers called your religion false...
... which, using your chosen language, makes your chosen
religion a “Christian-Basher”, “Christian-Hater” and
officially, full of vitriol.
Irony at its finest!
ampu
Why the deflection?
As far as your "refute the bible" bilge, it is you and yours, not I, refuting what the bible clearly says about there being more than one real and true God.
So I will play along....
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God,... Exodus 20:1-6
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one....Deuteronomy 6:4
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else -- Deuteronomy 4:39. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else Isaiah 45:18.
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:6
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. Isaiah 45:22
What is it with these folks and all the little games they play.
And they wonder why one would question the integrity of their ideas and doctrines much less their approach in defending themselves or presenting their ideas?
I guess we weren’t supposed to notice the LDS inc specious argument regarding the use of the word ‘gods’. You will not see the poster even acknowledge that which I posed to her regarding the name ‘Lucifer’. ... Now what was thst thing about nailing green jello to the wall?
Never enough nails for all that Jello...
____________________________________________________
Absurd, if I have to go to a seminary to accept Jesus Christ as my savior then I'm in trouble. The Apostles were fishermen not Seminarians. It's just not complicated, either accept Jesus of Nazarath or don't.
How very ‘clever’ of you, to change the focus when you have no response. You attacked the assertions regarding the non-valid Mormonism polygamy claims then when someone says you could actually doa little research and find out that polygamy was not common in Jesus’s day, you deceitfully try to change the focus to accepting Jesus. Is your jesus so feckless that you don’t feel any responsibility to correct blasphemous assertions reagrding His Character and the reason for His crucifixion? ... Do you even have a faith that Jesus IS your Redeemer and your only means to Salvation/Deliverance from your sinful self?
Many of the threads posted on the FR Religion forum make it very clear that the Mormon god called Jesus Christ is completely different than the Lord Jesus Christ who is worshiped and adored by all of Christendom.
Mormon apologists want to avoid the truths laid out in these careful comparisons and explanations by adhering to surfacy quips like "Jesus Christ is part of the name of our church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so of course we worship Jesus."
Christians who care enough to fully explain the truth, point out that Mormonism isn't Christianity and that the Mormon Jesus is a false god, one of the pantheon of gods the Mormons claim. The differences and distinctions take more time and space than a quick quip affords.
The Deity of Jesus Christ is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity. The Mormon church denies this truth, exalting man to "god status", but Jesus Christ is not acknowledged as the eternal Son of God in the Mormon church. The Mormon Jesus was a preexisting spirit who was exalted, just as Mormon followers hope to be exalted someday.
So JAK, the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus Christ who Christians worship and adore.
No one other than the Son of Man could provide atonement for fallen man.
Your statement, just like the Mormon doctrine it is based on, is complete nonsense.
And the opinion of Jesus Christ is codified in Scripture.
I agree with what you said with the exception of baptism for the dead: it doesn’t exist in Scripture.
I’m not familiar with the term “proxy work”, or its theological implications, but perhaps “propitiation” is better (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2).
I also agree with you in principle that a church cannot deny one entrance into heaven. But doctrine is important. Is the Jesus of the Bible, in fact the Jesus to whom you place your alliegance? That requires some investigation. If anyone would to suggest to me that I’m not following the correct Jesus, I want to hear their arguments: hell is too hot and eternity is too long to make light of it.
“I will not judge any persons religion, it just is not my job. Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to judge another religion.”
So let me get this straight... I point out the differences between Christianity and Mormonism and that is “judging another religion”... Well at least you admit Mormonism is not Christianity.
But aside from that your point is more mushy nonsense... Paul and the other apostles went at it all the time! The Epistles are full of examples of theological debate.
At Antoich Paul called out peter over the need for circumcision... On the surface that seems a whole lot less important than the Deity or Nature of Christ and God.. So if it’s good enough for Paul why not today?
“We are to bring the message...gospel to people, if it is not accepted, we wipe the dirt off of our shoes and move on.”
When others bring a false Gospel to people, or try to profit themselves from the Church and Christ name they are condemned and in some instances struck down by God for the affair.
Have I smashed in doors? burned books? attacked people? NO! and its damn deceitful to hide behind that leftist new agey tolerance crap when someone who worships a different God calls themselves Christian. They might be fine people but the very words of their Church condemn them as Apostate.
“I don’t know how you would approach a Mormon and tell them to repent and believe, when they already believe....rightly or wrongly.”
The same way you would a Muslim and Buddhist or an Athiest, with the true Gospel. Don’t sell Satans lies “You can be as God”. Seem you are asking me how I would provide the growth but as you say, my job is only to spread the seeds.
“There are people on this Earth that have had their eyes and ears sealed shut, to protect them.”
People with eyes fixed shut, as Pharaoh was, are not bleed in it. The only blessing is if God has it for them to be saved at a later date.
placemarker
Uh...
Because you rant like one?
Yup!
You've NAILED Mormonism all right!
But will merely 'accepting' get a fellow exalted?
You knock down one heresy; and another one pops up!
And I know of at least five people who joined the church due to threads like this one
Praise be to God!
****
That is true I have had 2 freepers in the pass two months tell me they saw the missionaries and are now are baptized!
Those that have ears hear their Master Voice!
Israel, Israel, God is Calling (Come to Zion...) Mormon Tabernacle Choir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3c-I4raKVc
“That is true I have had 2 freepers in the pass two months tell me they saw the missionaries and are now are baptized!”
..........................................................
Wow! They better buckle their seatbelts and prepare to
learn the “rest of the story”...
Mormon Missionary Deception Method:
1. Convince you of their sincerity
2. Trick you into expressing faith first in the Book of Mormon by praying and asking for a sign (this takes you off the objective ground of Biblical truth and puts you into subjective ground of feelings)
3. Convince you that the Bible has errors in its translation
4. Trick you into expressing faith in the prophet Joseph Smith
5. Trick you into expressing faith in the Restoration of the “Gospel” (see Galatians Chapter one)
6. Get you all the way into the baptismal font...
..........................................................
7. ONLY THEN... you will learn the true DEVIANT doctrines of
Mormonism. At this point, it is too late! You only have
feelings as a basis of truth! You will believe anything.
..........................................................
Such as the following “truths” taught in mormonism ...
The 3 Mormon Earth gods:
The mormon “Heavenly Father” used to be a regular Joe - a man.
The Jesus of mormonism was a created spirit being who became one of the three mormon earth gods
The mormonic Holy Spirit is also a created spirit being. He doesn’t have a body because he is on probation! Yes, he was naughty. He sinned.
In short, the mormon earth gods are fallen, created spirit beings who earned godhood. But there is more...
The FOURTH Mormon Earth God!
The Mormon Heavenly Mother God!
Yes, believe it or not, it turns out there is a mormonic “Mother God!”
... SHE and the father god have sex
... SHE is eternally pregnant
... SHE pops out spirit children who will some day get a human body on earth
... SHE is probably not alone! Mormons still believe and teach eternal polygamy.
The Mormonic Pantheon of gods:
There are TRILLIONS of mormon gods on other planets.
Hindus have approximately 350 million gods. They are
pikers compared to mormons!
How do they get so many gods? They manufacture more all the
time:
... Any mormon male can be a God with his own planet, mother goddesses, and spirit kids to worship him.
... Becoming a mormon god means lots of works to attain the god-level. This is why you see mormons working so hard. Now you know why.
... Speaking of levels, heaven has three levels.
... All the trillions of gods in the mormon pantheon get together regularly over spring break in Kolob Beach to “counsel together”
What will your life be like as a mormon?
... you have to give 10%?
... your bishop is there to ask if you gave your FULL tithe
... your bishop is also there to ask many probing, personal, embarrassing questions
... Did we mention you will
... you will have to complete Masonic Temple rituals that involve strangers touching your private parts
... You will have to wear magic underwear 24/7/365
... You will not be able to criticize the MORG leaders
... You will live a legalistic life in pursuit of your
own worthiness
Once inside the Morg, you have to accept it ALL to move up the chain towards Godhood.
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