What was your point of posting this article? And right before the feast of the Immaculate Conception. All you did was cause dissension among everyone here. Not something a truly religious person would do.
You seem to really resent Catholicism. Hopefully, you’ll find your way back.
I a Catholic told me that Mary’s mother was also sinless. How could she have produced a sinless mother of Jesus if not? And how far back do you want to take that? Down through all of Mary’s lineage? Her whole linage had to have been sinless then.
We Orthodox teach that Mary committed no personal sins, while rejecting the Latin innovation of the “Immaculate Conception” (which we see as a needless fix to a spurious problem created by simultaneously maintaining the true patristic understanding of Mary’s purity and accepting Blessed Augustine’s account of the effects of the Fall, unaccountably while rejecting his traductionist theory of the origin of the soul on which, in his own thinking, the theory rested).
Now there is some variance of opinion as to what is meant by this, as we recognize both voluntary and involuntary sins. Some Orthodox hold that Mary committed no sins—period. Others hold that she committed no voluntary sins—which is easier to square with “no man (anthropos) liveth and sinneth not, and Thou only art beyond sin”.
A Catholic told me that Mary’s mother was also sinless. How could she have produced a sinless mother of Jesus if not? And how far back do you want to take that? Down through all of Mary’s lineage? Her whole linage had to have been sinless then.
Get over it...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
cleaning up my minimized windows . . . it appears I didn’t post this earlier after writing it . . .
imho,
The early Christian writers
could not
UNANIMOUSLY AGREE
that the sun comes up in the morning,
much less
any dubious Christian dogma.
What nonsense that the
bureaucratic political powermongering magicsterical theological elites coming 400 years later
could rationally have the audacity to claim that the early Christian writers
unanimously agreed on
THEIR magicsterically convoluted mishmash of
STILL not the least consistent and homogeneous body of even Scriptural commentary.
Where do such . . . characters . . . get off claiming unanimous anything?
They STILL aren’t unanimous . . .
About the closest they get to being unanimously agreeing about anything is the horrific pile of Maryolatry they seem to mostly agree with . . . on alternate days.
Sheesh.
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Well, i stopped after 237 posts were made in about 2 hours. I would not consider the posted subject to really be a matter of salvation, but behind it is the foundational issue of authority, that of the only objective source which is affirmed to be wholly inspired by God, (2Tim. 3:16) separated from the rest of tradition which class it is part of, versus an assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM), it being infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly declared formula. Scripture has been employed here by Catholics, but their use of it cannot infer they see it as the means of ascertaining truth, as certainty can only come by implicit trust in the AIM, and by which a superior unity is claimed. That all being another debate, I went through and selected a representative sample from each side out of the many posts i saw, which i will try to place side by side with my brief comments. This also provides some idea of how different poster respond. Some simply reiterate the claims of their faith, or unsubstantiated views, or sometimes with a slew of links, while others provide some Scripture texts, and perhaps ancient testimony, with varying degrees of reasoning and responses, and some respond with indignation, immediately or after some of the preceding. |
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Roman Catholic |
Protestant |
Comment |
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Luke 1:48 “Because He hath regarded the humility of His Handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” being full of grace allows no room for sin. |
Mary herself offered a guilt offering to the priest. Christs line goes through Rahab The OT is all about CHRIST, not His mother..the ark was a type of CHRIST. |
From what i see only Jn. 1:14 states that Jesus was “full [plērēs, which is used 17 times, all denoting “full”] of grace [charis=grace] The key phrase in Lk. 1:28 simply says “Hail [chairō=rejoice, greeting, etc.] grace [chairō, denoting to be graced, favored, enriched with grace as in Eph.1:6) Robertson’s states that, Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’” (Plummer). As for the underlying argument, see further below. |
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Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin by the merits of Jesus Christ. He saved her. |
"All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"
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It is true that “all” is not always inclusive, but many texts state that all men are sinners, and this the Holy Spirit is faithful to state more than once that Jesus did not sin. (Jn. 8:46; 2Cor. 5:21; 1Pt. 2:220 |
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Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant -- carrying Christ within her womb. Of course, she was pure and sinless. |
Using that logic, it would be logical to conclude that Mary's mother was sinless as well. We couldn't have the sinless "Ark of the Covenant" be carried in the womb of a sinful human, could we? |
While the typology in this case might be permissible, though it is not mentioned (neither is Joseph in the O.T. as a type of Christ), the logic behind it limits God (below). |
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He needed a sinless vessel to bring the Savior |
In Luke 2:47 Mary says “And my Spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” |
The foundational logic necessitating a sinless vessel is not valid. If the God-breathed word of God came through sinners, then the word made flesh certainty can as well. |
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It is commonly understood that the Holy Spirit does not fill those who are still in a state of original sin. . If it is granted that John the Baptist was freed from original sin before birth, it does not follow that he was immaculate, as was the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is firstly because he may have been freed of original sin after his conception and before birth, whereas Mary was preserved from her conception from contracting original sin. |
1 john 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, Actually the Catholic church itself teaches that only Jesus could keep the whole law perfectly..and THAT is a description of sinless:) |
The idea that man is born guilty due to something he did not do is one i do not subscribe to. (2Ki. 14:5-6; 2Chr. 25:4; Jer. 31:29-30; Eze.18:20) Adam;s sin did lead to condemnation, that of his own and his progeny due to man having and yielding to his a sinful nature, (Gn. 4:7) and he also and suffers the temporal effects if Adam's sin, but the final judgment is based upon one's own works. (Rev. 20:12) And one can be filled with their Holy Spirit, which is an aspect of grace, and yet be a sinner. And as argued below, if John the Baptist was made free from sin before birth, then God could have done the same for all. |
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So God didn't have the power to absolve her as has been described in Catholic canons? |
If God could have simply absolved Mary's sin, He could do it for everyone. Then there would have been no need for Jesus to die. |
The first part of the Protestant is valid, but God forgave sins prior to Jesus death under the rubric of the final atonement. |
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Interesting logic, I guess this means Jesus sinned then right? For is he not part of “All”? |
if Mary was indeed sinless, it would have been very logical to claim her as an exception here, |
And consistent. (see #2),. |
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You should be concerned about YOUR salvation since you choose to disparage the Mother of Christ. She is much more active than a lot of other saints. |
Making up stories about her being sinless, immaculately conceived, perpetually virgin, assumed and whatever else their fancy conjures up, and passing them off as truth does no one any favors, |
Not thinking of any man of women beyond what is written is Scriptural. (1Cor. 4:6) The idea that the Bible supports prayers to the departed, or that Mary is capable of or needed to hear prayer is without warrant and is contrary to what is instructed and exampled in the Bible. |
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If Mary simple prodding of her son Jesus caused him to do something he originally did not intend to do and yet did it. That is Love for ones Mother and speaks wonders to have Mary petitioning Jesus for you |
Mary's not the only woman who seems to have convince Jesus to do what he had not intended. |
P response is valid, while the idea that we need a heavenly mother is a psychological and not a Biblical one. No insufficiency exists with Christ in terms of access or ability or compassion than would necessitate or advantage praying to heavenly intercessor. |
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Hey, if you find happiness by trashing the Mother of Our Lord and Savior, I won’t stand in the way. |
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The Catholic Church herself admits that much of Mariology lacks scriptural support. Fine.”
Really I missed that update |
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Perhaps "The Catholic Encyclopedia states that there are “no direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.” is one that was meant. (Frederick G. Holweck, “The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception,” The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910), vol. 7, p. 242 http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Immaculate_Conception#II._THE_HOLY_SCRIPTURE |
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I do not intend to participate in yet another forum established for the sole purpose of giving you a platform for blaspheming the Blessed Virgin and Catholic baiting |
Catholics are bashing God’s Word by their tradition of Mary and all their accolades the RCC bestows on her which are not in Scripture. |
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They have gone too far and I only appeal to God for mercy on their behalf for I will no longer be party to their sin. |
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The first time I've ever been this ticked off to leave. If I would have been in the same room with you, you'd be in the hospital, and I would be in jail. |
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I’ve got news for you. If you are a baptized Catholic you are still a Catholic even though you may not presently be a practicing one. |
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Serving two master would provide a false statistic on membership. “If someone lives an unrepentant sinful life and stops going to Mass, etc., this person is technically a de facto apostate, and is no longer really a member of the Catholic Church.” But as often is the case, formally it is not that simple. http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/how_to_stop_being_catholic.htm |
Matt ch 12 46As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk with him. 47Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.” 48Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “These are my mother and brothers. 50Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”
What does Paul say about sin?
Romans Ch 3 22We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. 23For all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. 25For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us.
Only three beings we know for certain existed before the Creation of this world. GOD, Christ, and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity.
A verse in scripture shows Christ saying to His Disciple John here is your mother and to Mary saying here is your son. He only said it to John not even to Peter. Why? Because in those times widows were basically left to poverty and the mercy of the Temple which at that time used them. John took Mary into his home and I believe the significance of that was honoring The Ten Commandments. Honor Thy Father and Mother. This was to make certain His Disciples did not let her live in desolation which was common in that day for someone in her position.
Mary is our Sister In Christ just as Peter, James, John, Paul, Sister Belle and Brother Smith at church are our brothers, sisters, and mothers.
Luke ch 11 v 27 also tells us who is more blessed. Mary was blessed indeed above all women but she was also human. The first chapter of Luke says plainly whom Mary is. She was a human being born of a man and woman. Because she believed GOD would do what He said He would do she gave physical birth to the Savior of Mankind. Indeed an honor for her and a blessing for her and all mankind to come.
Mary needed Christ for her salvation. Why? Because she lived when Christ came. Her righteousness came from her obedience to GOD up to that point as Luke ch 1 states. However that doesn't mean being without sin. Example is Abraham. A sinner if one ever existed. Yet Abrahm was righteous because of his faith and finally after several stumbles his obedience to GOD.
Luke ch 1 42Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, “You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed. 43What an honor this is, that the mother of my Lord should visit me! 44When you came in and greeted me, my baby jumped for joy the instant I heard your voice! 45You are blessed, because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.” 46Mary responded, “Oh, how I praise the Lord. 47 How I rejoice in God my Savior!
Now take the verse "45You are blessed, because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.” and then remember what Christ said in Luke ch 11 27As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, “God bless your mother—the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!” 28He replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.”
Elizabeth the Priest wife understood this & Mary understood it as well.
Yes, she is the anti-Eve - the possiblity of redemption of the entire human race entered the world through her by the grace of God. But if it curdles your cream to think about it, maybe you should just move on to some topic that doesn’t arouse such indignation and sniping and jealousy. When you meet her, ask her.
Soon to be megathread self ping
Was Mohammed sinless?
Muslims insist that he (above Jesus Christ whom they recognize in their own unholy book) is “the perfect man”.
The challenges to Christianity always seem to come around Christmas and Easter. Not so much Islam. Why is that?
Listen, I know that everyone is going to have a different opinion on this subject matter, but please be respectful to the Holy Mother Mary, she does not deserve any disrespect.
But of Christ alone it is written, “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor. 5:21)
Therefore, the Bible teaches us that Mary was a sinner like you and me.
(1) Mary called Jesus “my Savior”. She wouldn’t have needed a savior if she had been sinless.
(2) “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Every human inherited Adam’s sin, including Mary.
popcorn
Mary was his respected loved mother. She is NOT God and we can at most ask her to pray for us like you might our own relatives who passed on.
IMO she is a great advocate to pray for you.
I don’t care about the sin question because in any case Christ has forgiven any sins IMO that would have been that.
There does not seem to be a need. Her only requirement was her bloodline.
Miriam's role was not her characteristics or value, 1. Miriam is a daughter who has no brothers 2. Joseph is descended from King David. 3. The inheritance exception granted for the daughters of Zelophehad 4. If a woman who has no brothers marries a man of the same tribe 5. Joseph and Miriam are married (each descended from King David)
The first question to be asked is why does she need to be held to be sinless,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
but her bloodlines to King David,
having no brothers and
the exception started by
the daughters of Zelophehad.
There are five things that are important here:
and is descended from King David.
But he is from a line prohibited to inherit.
(These were daughters who had no brothers)
is in effect (Numbers 26, 27, 36; Joshua 17; 1 Chronicles 7).
She can inherit forever.
thus providing Miriam with permanent inheritance
of the Kingship of David for her to pass on to her son Yah'shua (Messiahship).
Wow, I’m astonished the question of “Was Mary Sinless?” is over 1,200 posts. Of course the answer is “No”.
What’s with you Reformers. You could have saved everyone a lot of time. ;O)
no
WOW!
Over 1500 replies in only 3 days!
BTW: the answer is NO.