And then you will understand that Biblically, that that mediator is NOT the vicar of Christ, i.e., the Catholic vicar of Christ in which his supreme headship is over the entire church on earth.
Nor is that mediator Mary as Mediatrix due to Mary's cooperation in the redemption through and under her Son. Mediatrix in itself could refer to either the objective redemption (the once-for-all earning a title to grace for all men), to the subjective redemption (the distribution of this grace to individual men).
But what does God's Word in the Bible say, is not this more simple to understand: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Romans 5:15 ...much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, WHICH IS BY ONE MAN, JESUS CHRIST, hath abounded unto many.
If you believe in God's Word, then this Scripture clearly says: The gift by grace, WHICH IS BY ONE MAN, JESUS CHRIST. It does not say: The gift by grace, WHICH IS BY TWO, JESUS CHRIST and MARY
Furthermore: Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: This Grace is clearly seen in the Bible as distributed of the Lord Jesus Christ for those who are saved.
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
These distributions of God's Grace are clearly seen in the Bible, without mixture, as being distributed solely BY and OF the Lord Jesus Christ for those who are saved.
All these Scripture truths will make perfect sense to those who believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: THE Word of God. Take time to study these Scriptures. In fact, study them before you make a railing post of opposition, otherwise, it is evident that "hearing they hear not, neither do they understand" (Matthew 13:13)
A friend told me that if Roman Catholics understood what the office of "mediator" really is, they would understand better how wrong it is to say Mary or any saint is a "mediator between God and men."
And so Christians are called to kneel to none but Christ.
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
Now, as a non-Catholic I have a problem theologically with this in the manner they choose (especially asking for intercession from the Saints and Mary who have already passed), however, I will not bear false witness and falsely proclaim that Catholics are describing this mediation as any sort of replacement or equality to Christ or His role.
Thanks for the anti-Catholic rant. /s
More street corner screeching/preaching from the anti-Catholic bigots on FR. A sad way to greet the New Year.
Absolutely true.
Another truth is that God alone is the Judge of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)
It's always been amazing to me that while in His own agony, Jesus could hear the faith of the thief on the cross beside Him, know the sincerity in his heart and proclaim his salvation. Not another living person would have believed him to be 'saved'.
I think this is an example of just how little doctrine a person needs to believe in order to receive God's grace and gift.
While Christians can understand that the doctrine of a particular group is error laden, multitudes who fellowship with them may believe enough of the truth for salvation but have not paid close enough attention to the other teachings sufficiently to pollute their faith and cancel out the Grace of God extended to them.
I think in this regard Christians should be careful to not be so disagreeably insistent on everyone eating meat that has been offered to idols only to cause their brother to sin. I Corinthians 8:1-13. While their doctrine is correct it is not purity of doctrine that saves and a Pharisaical attitude can turn them against Christ.
What an embarrassment if when Christ asks them why they didn't accept Him when they were given a chance they say I didn't want to be like "Joe the jerk Christian" who said I had to do this and believe that and become just like him. I didn't want to have to become a jerk to be a Christian."
Its God's grace through faith. The Pharisaical spirit will pollute God's grace and make purity of doctrine necessary for salvation. The Jesus lead spirit will tell the story, let the Holy Spirit convict and convince and demonstrate a loving life.
Christian apologetics is a useful tool when employed with the Spirit of love rather than the I'm right and your wrong because... spirit of the Pharisee.
I think the two biggest surprises in heaven will be:
1-The people who aren't there that we thought would be and
2-The people who are there that we thought wouldn't be.
Must be lonely for you
Just so you know:
The Catholic Church has repeatedly rejected the title of “Mediatrix” for the Blessed Virgin Mary and any saint.
It does appear in unapproved literature by several non-heretical Catholic groups; the reasoning is that Mary, as all saints do, prays for us on our behalf. Thus, they mediate. However, Mary prays to Christ, the Son, for his mediation on our behalf to the father; she does not pray instead of us, she prays with us.
Christ’s mediation is different. He does not atone with us, he atones for us. Our participation in any atonement is not salvific, Thus, his mediation is of a different nature than any mediation any saint performs; the mediation of saints cannot rescue us from Hell, as did the mediation of Christ.
Thus, in the sense that Christ mediates for us, he alone mediates for us, and it is confusing, therefore, to call anyone else “mediator” or “mediatrix.”
What prompted you to put on your big boy pants and assault the Catholic Church without provocation? Do you think an anonymous internet posting improves your chances for Salvation or will turn a Catholic away from the Church and improve theirs? Do you in some way feel threatened by the Church?
Look at a Catholic litany. Notice all the prayers adressed to Christ say 'have mercy on us', whereas all the prayers addressed to Mary or The Saints say 'pray for us'.
Ain't it great to be vindicated by a headline! (not that such is necessary)
So all these people and religions and other organizations collecting money and dictating on behalf of God or Jesus really are the liars, cheats, thieves, and frauds as I've called them.
Tuesday, October 14, 2008
“There is One Mediator” (1 Timothy 2:5): Does This Rule Out “Mini-Mediators”?
1 Timothy 2:5 (RSV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
How do Roman Catholics deal with the sole mediation of Jesus versus the mediation of the saints?
Perhaps the following Bible passages will be helpful for readers to understand the “both/and” biblical perspective on this point:
Romans 11:13-14 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
2 Corinthians 1:6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.
James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
[Paul and others “save” other people, thus becoming “mini-mediators” in the sense that they are vessels for the grace and salvation that comes from God, won by Jesus’ wholly sufficient and perfect sacrificial death on the cross]
1 Corinthians 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives
[Paul says that Timothy can help save others, and wives and husbands can help “save” their spouses (and Peter concurs with the latter notion), thus also becoming a mini-mediators]
Acts 2:40-41 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Philippians 2:12b-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
[now we all participate in helping to save ourselves (as we saw also in 1 Tim 4:16), in the sense of merit, that originates always from God’s grace, and as a result of baptism: more mediation of God’s grace and salvation: this time through the natural conduit of a sacrament (cf. Mk 16:16)]
2 Corinthians 4:15 For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12,17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
Ephesians 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you...
Ephesians 4:29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[Paul distributes divine grace, just as we believe Mary does, and teaches that others can do the same]
St. Peter also joins in teaching that Christians can distribute divine grace to each other:
1 Peter 4:8b-10 . . . love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace.
Even the angels help to give God’s grace and act as mediators:
Revelation 1:4-5a John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ . . .
In fact, Paul is so gung-ho on the notion of his distributing grace to folks, that he mentions this at the beginning of practically every epistle that he wrote. When Paul and others use the common greeting of “grace to you” (e.g., Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1; 2 Thess 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Rev 1:4) it is in the sense of “may God give you more grace.”
Why wish, after all, that someone should have or receive what they already clearly possess? If “grace” only means “the free favor by which we are saved” (the Protestant view, by and large) then the Christians to whom Paul is writing his epistles already have this grace (since Protestants believe in a past salvation that is already accomplished). So why would Paul say “grace to you”? It would be like telling a man who has a daughter “I wish you the blessing of a daughter from God” or a man with a nice mansion: “best wishes to you for a nice mansion.” That makes no sense. Rather, it seems fairly clear, I think, that st. Paul is stating that he hopes and prays that his readers will receive more grace from God, as in the sense of 2 Peter 3:18, Ephesians 4:7, James 4:6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:2, etc.
And in so doing he is acting, again, as a sort of “mini-mediator.” Jesus is ultimately the mediator of grace. It all comes through Him. But He also clearly uses human beings to distribute the grace, allowing others to attain salvation, as these passages establish beyond any doubt. I need not even get into any number of similar passages concerning atonement (such as by Moses), intercessory prayer, and proclaiming of the gospel for salvation, or baptismal regeneration.
by Dave Armstrong
Ok, I decided awhile ago to just jump into this target rich enviroment. It appears that you’re offending some here on this thread, and getting condecending rebuffs. So maybe I can help out by loosening a few chariot wheels.
And if you would like to truly get on the path to real salvation, not just head knowledge about Jesus..please call 206-315-4836. Free recorded mental exercise...be still..used widely now by our troopers! Because it works.
Exactly, There is but one mediator between God and man ... those that seek another mediator have none..
If God did not want to work through men, He would not have made Jesus a man and instead send down some stone tablets or the like. God knew that written words would not suffice so God sent his Son as a man to teach men the meaning of God is Love.
Jesus, in turn, spread the word through earthy men. Because He would not write a how-to manual He sent the Holy Spirit to guide men. The Holy Spirit has continued to guide His successors. He promised to be with them until the end of time. Thanks be to God.
Hallelujah!!!!!
Matthew 6:5-13 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
‘Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
‘Give us this day our daily bread.
‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’
Philippians 4:5b-7 The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Amen, it is Jesus Christ.