Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is NO debate here: God's Word clearly points out who the mediator is between God and men: i.e., Christ Jesus
If you believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: The Word of God, then 1 Timothy 2:5 will be easily be understood as Christ the mediator.
>> The Vicar of Christ, i.e., is seen by the Catholics in which his supreme headship is over the entire church on earth.
Biblically speaking, that is definitely an equality to Christ role on earth. Based upon Colossians: <<
Again, the pope is not an equal to Christ, but a vicar of his.
The biblical metaphor is that of a regent: While a King is not present in his realm, he appoints a regent. The regent speaks with the authority of the king. But he is not king, and must be obedient to the king in all matters, and surrender all authority to the king. The symbol of the authority of the regent is the keys to the kingdom. Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Further, in the event a regent dies before the return of the king, the authority of the regent must be passed on; therefore it makes no sense to argue that Peter’s authority passed with him.
Incidentally, Peter’s sinful denial of Christ in no way undermines his authority as vicar or regent. Jesus told Peter he would receive such authority in the future tense. Peter did not speak as regent when he denied Christ. The bible is very plain when Peter became vicar of the Good Shepherd; immediately after forgiving Peter for denying him, Jesus told Peter, “Shepherd my sheep.” (King James’ translation, “Feed my sheep” fails to convey that the same root word is used in “I am the good shepherd” and “Shepherd my sheep.”)
Praise God! And soon every knee SHALL bow to the One and Only Mediator!
What prompted you to put on your big boy pants and assault the Catholic Church without provocation? Do you think an anonymous internet posting improves your chances for Salvation or will turn a Catholic away from the Church and improve theirs? Do you in some way feel threatened by the Church?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states "480 - Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men." and affirms it another 11 times. That, however, will not be sufficient for a fringe nutjob so we can expect to see the lie repeated ad naseum. Some old dogs are just not capable of learning new tricks.
>> Exactly where in Catholic doctrine does it say that there is any other way to God than through Jesus Christ and Him crucified, resurrected and gloriously sitting at the right hand of the Father? <<
When Catholics Again, when one seeks Mary’s example in humility, one learns how to draw themselves “to Jesus, through Mary.”
Now, Dr. Eckleburg may believe in no need to learn humility or any other virtue through Mary or any saint, so he oppose the saying, “to Jesus through Mary,” but it is false to suppose that Catholics teach “to the Father through Mary instead of Jesus.”
I know. When I put a question like this out there, I feel like the mean little brother/sister pinching my siblings arm just to instigate some trouble.
The “use the Bible to try to thump Catholics” crowd obviously don’t pay too much attention to what Jesus actually says and does in the Gospels. Otherwise, they might understand that Jesus used people and temporal things to teach His sermons as often as He used Scripture.
Also, they would know that Jesus is the Lord of the living and not the dead.
Lots of “mistakes” in supposition with those whose reason for living is to attack Catholicism.
Look at a Catholic litany. Notice all the prayers adressed to Christ say 'have mercy on us', whereas all the prayers addressed to Mary or The Saints say 'pray for us'.
“More street corner screeching/preaching from the anti-Catholic bigots on FR. A sad way to greet the New Year.”
This should really set them off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
**Praise God! And soon every knee SHALL bow to the One and Only Mediator!**
“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth”. Phil. 2:10
In heaven? Well, any trinitarians that believe that the Father has a knee, will have to admit that he will bow to Jesus Christ. Ditto for Mary.
I’ve been to several Catholic weddings which included the mass. There was a lot of bowing to statues of Mary, Peter, etc. Wuttz up wit dat?
Thank you. It is nice to read a reasoned disagreement every now and again.
Mary's dead. Friends aren't.
**Catholics don’t pray to Mary, we ask Mary to pray for us.**
You’re assuming that Mary can hear you. I find no record in the EPISTLES of any prayers to any of the deceased.
But you could make up the rules as you go, and say that it is possible to make request to the deceased.
Whoops, the RCs have already thought of that, so it must be true.
Ain't it great to be vindicated by a headline! (not that such is necessary)
So all these people and religions and other organizations collecting money and dictating on behalf of God or Jesus really are the liars, cheats, thieves, and frauds as I've called them.
Tuesday, October 14, 2008
“There is One Mediator” (1 Timothy 2:5): Does This Rule Out “Mini-Mediators”?
1 Timothy 2:5 (RSV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
How do Roman Catholics deal with the sole mediation of Jesus versus the mediation of the saints?
Perhaps the following Bible passages will be helpful for readers to understand the “both/and” biblical perspective on this point:
Romans 11:13-14 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
2 Corinthians 1:6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.
James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
[Paul and others “save” other people, thus becoming “mini-mediators” in the sense that they are vessels for the grace and salvation that comes from God, won by Jesus’ wholly sufficient and perfect sacrificial death on the cross]
1 Corinthians 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives
[Paul says that Timothy can help save others, and wives and husbands can help “save” their spouses (and Peter concurs with the latter notion), thus also becoming a mini-mediators]
Acts 2:40-41 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Philippians 2:12b-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
[now we all participate in helping to save ourselves (as we saw also in 1 Tim 4:16), in the sense of merit, that originates always from God’s grace, and as a result of baptism: more mediation of God’s grace and salvation: this time through the natural conduit of a sacrament (cf. Mk 16:16)]
2 Corinthians 4:15 For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12,17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
Ephesians 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you...
Ephesians 4:29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[Paul distributes divine grace, just as we believe Mary does, and teaches that others can do the same]
St. Peter also joins in teaching that Christians can distribute divine grace to each other:
1 Peter 4:8b-10 . . . love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace.
Even the angels help to give God’s grace and act as mediators:
Revelation 1:4-5a John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ . . .
In fact, Paul is so gung-ho on the notion of his distributing grace to folks, that he mentions this at the beginning of practically every epistle that he wrote. When Paul and others use the common greeting of “grace to you” (e.g., Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1; 2 Thess 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Rev 1:4) it is in the sense of “may God give you more grace.”
Why wish, after all, that someone should have or receive what they already clearly possess? If “grace” only means “the free favor by which we are saved” (the Protestant view, by and large) then the Christians to whom Paul is writing his epistles already have this grace (since Protestants believe in a past salvation that is already accomplished). So why would Paul say “grace to you”? It would be like telling a man who has a daughter “I wish you the blessing of a daughter from God” or a man with a nice mansion: “best wishes to you for a nice mansion.” That makes no sense. Rather, it seems fairly clear, I think, that st. Paul is stating that he hopes and prays that his readers will receive more grace from God, as in the sense of 2 Peter 3:18, Ephesians 4:7, James 4:6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:2, etc.
And in so doing he is acting, again, as a sort of “mini-mediator.” Jesus is ultimately the mediator of grace. It all comes through Him. But He also clearly uses human beings to distribute the grace, allowing others to attain salvation, as these passages establish beyond any doubt. I need not even get into any number of similar passages concerning atonement (such as by Moses), intercessory prayer, and proclaiming of the gospel for salvation, or baptismal regeneration.
by Dave Armstrong
Ok, I decided awhile ago to just jump into this target rich enviroment. It appears that you’re offending some here on this thread, and getting condecending rebuffs. So maybe I can help out by loosening a few chariot wheels.
So I guess the question is: Where did the Bible come from?
It came from the Church. There are no contradictions with Catholic teaching since the Bible was written by, preserved by, given by, the Catholic Church.
Before the Bible all teaching was oral. And before the printing press most people did not know how to read. How were they to know the teachings of Christ if they had no one to tell them?
As a convert, I know that the Church is given to us by Christ. And every day I thank God for making me Catholic.
IIRC, the only scriptural case, of someone making request to someone deceased, is the matter of King Saul asking the witch to bring up the spirit of Samuel (so he could ask for his help). That was a pretty bad scene.
It’s called missing the mark. How sad it is to not to be in the real glory of the Lord.
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