Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is NO debate here: God's Word clearly points out who the mediator is between God and men: i.e., Christ Jesus
If you believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: The Word of God, then 1 Timothy 2:5 will be easily be understood as Christ the mediator.
My personal belief is that Mary is alive as promised and it is perfectly valid to ask her to pray for us.
I still don’t see anything about sleeping or going into a coma in John 3:16.
“Dear Brothers and Sisters, let us trust in the One who as the Servant of God Paul VI affirmed “having been assumed into Heaven, she has not abandoned her mission of intercession and salvation”
Apostolic Exhortation, Marialis Cultus, “ BENEDICT XVI
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56
Why would Jesus lead anyone astray by referring to Abraham as father?
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Your catechism betrays your opinion.
969 - "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." 968 - Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
Blasphemy. Flee from it. There is only "one God and one mediator, the man, Christ Jesus."
Here is a very good link regarding Mary and "intercessionary" prayer...
And this excellent page on...
Suppose a Christian brother comes and kneels before you, imploring you with great devotion to pray for him. Would you allow him? How would you react if he calls you his advocate, his hope and refuge? What if he thanks you for the many graces you conferred on him and for delivering him from hell? Suppose he tells you that he confines his salvation to your care and pleads with you to stay with him until you see him safe in heaven? Would you call that "asking a fellow Christian for prayer"? Of course not! That kind of prayer and confidence is nothing less than divine worship and it should be directed only to the Lord Jesus Christ. And yet that is exactly the kind of prayer that Catholics offer to Mary and the saints. We should underline the fact that death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven. As Christians we also believe in the communion of the saints - whether we are on earth or in heaven... However that does not imply that death does nothing to the interaction between us! We all know something of the painful and terrible reality of death separating us from our loved ones... there is no communication between the departed and us. That's why the Bible forbids us from trying to communicate with the dead. Dead saints remain part of the body of Christ, but there is an effective separation from the living saints... We must face the sad consequence of death: separation! [168] Believers don't need to make contact with spirits of the dead to seek their intercession with God Almighty. As children of God, members of His family, we have the right to go boldly before the Throne of Grace with our petitions. We can appeal to our heavenly Father directly. [169] The Bible makes it clear that we do not need dead saints to intercede on our behalf. We can go boldly before the throne of grace because Jesus is our mediator.
Also pertinent to this discussion is the immutable fact that God has forbidden communication with the dead at:
Loraine Boettner insightfully asked:
Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being... The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time. How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts? [170] Praying to Mary or any other dead saint is a foolish and blasphemous practice that is against both common sense and Biblical commandments. Dr. Joe Mizzi pointed out the flaw in this line of reasoning:
We note that praying to the saints is not equivalent to asking fellow Christians for prayer. This excuse may be convincing to some Christians who never had any personal experience of the Catholic religion. Otherwise, every Catholic (and former Catholic) knows that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different than asking a fellow believer for prayer.
"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:14-16)
* Leviticus 19:31
* Leviticus 20:6
* Deuteronomy 18:9
* 1 Chronicles 10:13.
How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
God's word does not tell us that Christ and anyone else brings us the salvation Christ ALONE has won for His flock on the cross.
It's the difference between One God and many gods. Sadly, Rome leans toward the latter.
Yet since you seem hell-bent on slandering the doctrine of the Church, here is Pope John Paul II making very clear the position of the Church, citing infallibly declared documents to do so:
2. To understand Mary's presence on our journey to the Father, we must recognize with all the Churches that Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6) and the only Mediator between God and men (cf. 1 Tm 2:5). Mary is involved in Christ's unique mediation and is totally at its service. Consequently, as the Council stressed in Lumen gentium: "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power" (n. 60). In no way do we state that Mary has a role in the Church's life apart from Christ's mediation or alongside it, as if it were a parallel or competing mediation.Now, there are plenty of titles that Mary bears which we Catholics will defend, debate and discuss with non-Catholics, "Mother of God," "Full of Grace," "Ever-Virgin", "Queen of Angels," "Embodiment of the Church," "the New Eve," "Mother of the Church," "Spiritual Vessel," "Ark of the [New] Covenant," "Gate of Heaven," "Queen of Disciples," "Immaculate Conception." Yeah, we Catholics do think highly of Mary!Mary's unique place is owed to the merits of Christ.
As I expressly said in the Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Mary's maternal mediation "is mediation in Christ" (n. 38). The Council explains: "The Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men originates not in any inner necessity but in the disposition of God. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. It does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but, on the contrary, fosters it" (Lumen gentium, n. 60).
So no-one's shying away from controversy or trying to conceal occulted doctrines, like the Scientologists do. It's just that "Mediatrix" is not one of them. And frankly, it's insulting the way you and your posse are always saying, "No! You Catholics really believe..." or "Your Church really says..." Maybe that stuff works with the ignorant, unchurched who shop up at your churches and call themselves Catholic because their Grandma had a rosary. But it's a pretty lame way to win an argument with someone who knows better. And the fact that you have to slander other people's religion to convince people of the truth of yours... well that says shockingly poor things about your own faith.
ANd for the record, I am now done with this conversation.
Our current understanding of Time as a dimension could be the problem. We consider time as a linear phenomenon, a linear flow. In reality, dimension Time may be a volume, with an infinite number of planar expressions. Can you explain the scene in Daniel Chapter five? Can you explain how Jesus left the still wrapped burial shroud and the solid rock tomb.? Can you explain how Jesus appeared in the upper room with all the doors and windows locked? Just saying He is God so miracles arer His purview doesn’t answer the legitimate where/when questions. Angels reside in some spatio-temporal realm which God Created and which is part of the Universe of His creating. When our understanding of dimension Time improves, perhaps you will see that Jesus Who now occupies a physical body can hear every prayer uttered simultaneously from human souls, and how, PERHAPS, His earthly Mother now ‘beyond the veil’ can hear millions of prayers and hear each one individually. PERHAPS.
Whats the difference in asking Mary to pray for you and contacting great Aunt Mille and asking her to do something for you?
“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)
“Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
“And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
“So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.(Rev 21:8)
Praying to anyone but God through Christ is nothing more than the Colossian Heresy
but I hear Mary has ‘an in’ with the big guy and can ‘intercede’ for you
Facts are stubborn little things aren't they ?
And if she is in hell??
No, Our Lord was, is and always will be God.
Ignorant spew is NOT the same as preaching the Gospel.
The title of the pope is the VICAR of Christ.. The word Vicar means ANOTHER ..the pope is "another christ"
Do you know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is nares?
“Dr.” Eckleburg says: (Speaking directly from her bellybutton, no doubt!)
“Praying to Mary or any other dead saint is a foolish and blasphemous practice that is against both common sense and Biblical commandments.”
Snort. LOL.
Let’s see, we have the vast majority of Christendom, now and for the last 2,000 years on one side, and then the faux “Dr” Ecklesberg here on the internet, the minuscule heretical OPC and random, ignorant street screechers on the other. Tough choice. Not.
But hey “doctor” thanks for the giggles.
The title of the pope is the VICAR of Christ.. The word Vicar means ANOTHER ..the pope is "another christ"Of course she is wrong, but that isn't a surprise. At least here is what Merriam-Webster says Vicar means:
Definition of VICAR 1 : one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy 2 : an ecclesiastical agent: as a : a Church of England incumbent receiving a stipend but not the tithes of a parish b : a member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or chapel c : a member of the clergy who exercises a broad pastoral responsibility as the representative of a prelate — vic·ar·ship noun
Hey you did so well (snort - lol) on Vicar, do tell, what do YOU think it is?
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