Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is NO debate here: God's Word clearly points out who the mediator is between God and men: i.e., Christ Jesus
If you believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: The Word of God, then 1 Timothy 2:5 will be easily be understood as Christ the mediator.
I do not think the clear and direct commandment not I distinguish between metaphors and clear commandments.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
to call a man "Father" was a metaphor.
So, did you ever say what you think the Gospel is? Which comment, if so?
Really? You do not know? Stop by your local Catholic Mass, they happen every DAY, and the Gospel will be an integral part of that ultimate, sacred Worship accorded only to God.
As for the (not always honest) sweetie you pinged, ask her for a simple one - like what the word VICAR means in English.
Yes, I really do not know what you think the Gospel is. That is why I asked.
So, trying to keep on-topic: you’re saying the Gospel is “Attend Mass, and you will be saved”?
Are you also saying that if one cannot correctly define “vicar,” he cannot be saved?
>>>> Just that Mary is “most highly favored one,” and “blessed among women,” whom “all generations shall call blessed” because “blessed is the fruit of [her] womb.”
>> That’s according to the RCC. However, according to Jesus..
No, those are all verses from the bible. I remember watching that Nativity movie a couple years ago, where Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary was so alien to the Protestant/fictionalized context of the nativity, it was removed from the story, and placed, balkanized, at the end of the movie. And Gabriel was a mute light.
You misquoted Luke 11:27-28. He doesn’t use any comparitives or superlatives. Mary is certainly included in all those who heard the word and obeyed.
>> All that she accomplishes? Besides willfully stretching it, She HEARD and OBEYED, no different than anyone who follows Jesus. <<
Precisely. However, she was declared “full of grace,” or, “most highly favored one” at a time when all other men were condemned. Even the archangel Gabriel greeted her, with a “Hail!”
I said what I said. If that confuses you, see a priest.
If you try to read my mind, you will fail and you violate the rules of the road here. Try and play by the rules.
It can all be explained pretty simpl, you don't know what the heck you are talking about. What is it with you guys that you profess to spend so much time "studying" Catholicism with an objective of finding its flaws when you so obviously know nothing about it? What is equally clear is that studying the religions you reject such as Islam, Moromnism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Bahia, Zoroasternism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shinto, Judaism, Cao Dai, Wicca, Chinese or African Folk Religions, Rastafarianism or Universal Unitarianism or even sifting through the mess of Protestantism to know the differences between Pietism and Methodism, Evangelicalism, Adventism, Modernism and Liberalism, Pentecostalism, Fundamentalism, Neo-orthodoxy, New Evangelicalism, Paleo-Orthodoxy, Ecumenism you have no time to gain an expertise in any of them or your own. You certainly have to never studied the Catholic faith sufficiently to gain an expertise on par with the Catholics on FR who have spent the majority of their lives learning the richness and complexity. All you can do is parrot the postings of your anti-Catholic cohorts and the out of context snippets gleaned from forbidden websites and illiterate street preachers.
What the anti-Catholics dredge up as "proof" of some Catholic belief in saving powers of Mary is simply horse hockey and frankly I don't care if you believe it or not. Ubi Primum was an encyclical seeking input from the bishops on the special nature of Mary, the greatest of all saints. Further, information from well intentioned "Catholic" websites is not official Church doctrine, but rather a public forum. Most often these are not completely wrong as they are simply incomplete.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we must go through Mary, but it does recognize that Salvation is the product of Mary's womb. That is undeniable.
Now, if you are searching for answers please or simply trying to establish an understanding for the purpose of Ecumenicalism please continue to study the Catechism and for your own sake seek out a competent Catechist. However, if you are only looking for evidence of your own spiritual superiority you are not going to impress learned Catholics or God.
That's just about as wrong as you can get. I am going to put that down to pure ignorance and not presume that your alleged Catholic background would cause you to know better and therefore be participating in a willful lie.
Does He tell you to read Scripture because everything in the Mass is a collective (mass) scriptural experience? Everything about the Mass is from Scripture. Every action of the priest is from Scripture and the entire structure and order of the Mass is from Scripture and the words spoke by the priest and the congregation are from Scripture. In reality more Scripture is read in one mass than in any Protestant service I've ever attended. It is ignorant, unfair or deceitful to assert that Catholics aren't Bible-based. Let me take you for a walk down memory lane and point out the things you have forgotten or have chosen to ignore:
Greeting:
Priest: In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)
People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)
Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)
People: And also with you.
Penitential Rite:
All: I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25)
Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)
People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)
All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.
Gloria:
All: Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. (Luke 2:14) Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, (Rev 19:6) we worship you, (Rev. 22:9) we give you thanks, (Eph. 5:20) we praise you for your glory. (Rev 7:12) Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, (2 John 3) Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; (John 1:29) You are seated at the right hand of the Father, receive our prayer. (Rom 8:34) For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34) You alone are Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ. (Luke 1:32) with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. (John 14:26)
[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]
[A Sermon on the readings follows.] (2 Tim 4:1-2)
Profession of Faith: [the Nicene (or Apostles) Creed]
All: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16) We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen
Liturgy of the Eucharist:
[The gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people.] (Malachi 3:10)
Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)
People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:35) Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)
People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)
Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)
People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his Church. (Ps 50:23)
Eucharistic Prayers:
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord Our God. (Col 3:17)
People: It is right to give him thanks and praise. (Col 1:3)
Preface acclamation:
All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3) Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)
Eucharistic prayer:
[There are four of these, based on ancient prayers of the Church. Eucharistic Prayer Two follows as an example:]
Priest: Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. (2 Macc. 14:36) Let your spirit come upon these gifts (water and wine) to make them holy, so that they may become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Before he was given up to death, (Phil 2:8) a death he freely accepted, (John 10:17-18) he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25) Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.
All: Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus, come in glory. (Heb 2:14-15)
Priest: In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. (John 6:51) We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17) Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love together with our Pope and our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again: bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. (2 Macc 12:45-46) Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory though your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5) Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.
All: Amen. (Rom 11:36)
Communion Rite:
The Lord’s Prayer:
All: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Matt 6:9-13)
Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior, Jesus Christ. (John 17:15)
All: For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen
Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles; I leave you peace, my peace I give to you. (John 14:27) Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live forever and ever.
Priest: The peace of the Lord be with you always! (John 20:19)
People: And also with you! [The priest then directs the people to exchange a sign, such as a handshake or a kiss, or a word of God’s peace to one another.]
Breaking of the Bread:
All: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace. (John 1:29)
Communion:
Priest: This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. (Rev. 19:9)
People: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed. (Matt 8:8)
[Communion is distributed to the faithful at the altar by the priest and lay ministers.]
Dismissal:
Priest: Blessed be the name of the Lord. Now and forever. (Dan 2:20) May almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:51) Go in peace (Luke 7:50) to love and serve the Lord. (2 Chr 35:3)
[During the blessing the people make the Sign of the Cross, the traditional sign of the baptized and a public sign of their belief in the power of God.]
People: Thanks be to God. (2 Cor 9:15)
"For by GRACE are ye saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9.
Have you ever wondered why Cain's offering to God was rejected?
I hope you also inform Quix about using phrases like
RC RABID CLIQUE
TERMINAL CLUELESSNESS
which is quite ignorant and insulting to me as a Catholic
When you go to a mass you see a worthless ritual that blasphemes the sacrifice of the cross ...But that aside what you HEAR at the Catholic mass is a reading from the books that are called the gospels ... What was the GOSPEL that Jesus preached BEFORE those books were written ?
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
what was the Gospel Jesus preached?
Excellent post. It is amazing the misinformation that the Anti_Catholic bashers accept as “Gospel truth” of the Catholic Church just to demonstrate their so-called Spiritual superiority
What has Elizabeths greeting to do with our being saved? If she had said Ohh no Mary I hear you are pregnant out of wedlock.. would that have changed the gospel in any way?
One of the most interesting events that PROCEEDED that greeting was what happened in Elizabeths womb.. Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
BEFORE Elizabeth could see or recognize Christ the Holy Spirit had to open her eyes ... The prophet John the Baptist was filled while in the womb of his mother
THAT is the event we need to celebrate, the work of the Holy Spirit..not Elizabeth or Mary but the work of God in HIS people
Precisely. However, she was declared “full of grace,” or, “most highly favored one” at a time when all other men were condemned. Even the archangel Gabriel greeted her, with a “Hail!”
How do YOU know ALL other men were condemned? What is your source of that knowledge? God ALWAYS has a remnant according to grace
The child in the womb of Elizabeth was a prophet..of him Christ said this
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
The one that leapt in the womb at the presence of Christ..was counted, by Christ, as greater than His mother
While I agree with you you are not going to have any success. The forum does not acknowledge the transitive property or the law of syllogism (if A = B and B = C, then A = C). It is perfectly acceptable to state to a Catholic "all catholics are pedophiles...do the math, as long as no one actually uses the "y" word (you). It is also perfectly permissible to tell a Catholic who has family members who are priests that all priests are pedophiles but not permit them to take that personally.
As such you have a number of so-called Christians who tip toe along the line and use finesse to perpetually insult Catholics in very personal and hurtful ways with the tacit approval of the moderators so long as the "y" word isn't used.
Well, I do take exception with the spontaneity, as Catholics so often seem to be speaking off the cuff.
However, the lack of sense of humor is dead on......
p43 1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p47 10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
As Scripture tells us...
And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:18-20 "They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
They "fall down to the stock of a tree." And those who recognize the lie in their right hand shake the dust off their feet and leave for a Biblical church where the word of God is preached in truth.
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." -- 1 Thess. 2:13
Then you are not in a Catholic Church because there is more Scripture read during a single Catholic mass than during an entire year of Protestant services. The "worthless ritual" is entirely scriptural.
Besides, the Catholic mass is not intended to be an educational exercise like a Protestant service. We have an altar as the center of WORSHIP not a podium to elevate a pastor. We have a liturgy, not a forum to formulate anti-Catholic rhetoric and spread lies and heresy.
They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Taken in context there is no indication that the term *father* is not to be used by a child for his male parent.
Jesus here is talking about religious leaders and their positions and using the title in a religious sense.
The Catholic church is clearly violating the clear teaching of Jesus in regards to using the term *father* for religious leaders.
Do you know WHY Mary was favored and other women would think she had been blessed by God?
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