Posted on 11/26/2010 6:39:06 AM PST by HarleyD
There you go again, using Scripture to back predestinarian doctrine as opposed to universalist hunches.
Neo-Augustinian neo-Manichaeism.
With a touch of the Muslim idea of God’s will being dominant to his other qualities.
Have fun knocking it down as there will be no one here to argue it.
Balderdash.
Does this have to do.with the King.s divorce?
It is an interesting question. God did create Satan knowing all the evil Satan would do.
No, there Calvin goes misapplying scripture and ignoring what doesn’t fit his preconceived views.
For example, as evidence that most men are “foreordained to everlasting death.[7]”, it offers:
[7] ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
EPH 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Yet Romans 9-11 is manifestly NOT about individual salvation, for individual Jews were and are being saved, but about corporate election (http://evangelicalarminians.org/taxonomy/term/21).
Ephesians 1, likewise, says nothing about how we become elect, merely that we are - which is consistent with Arminian teaching. We are elect IN CHRIST: “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will”, and predestined to be like Jesus - but is this because he picked our names, and then gave us life, and then gave us faith, or is it because he chose to give life to all who believe the promise of God?
Jesus commanded, “...the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1 It required the efforts of Calvin to turn this into a meaningless statement, for according to Calvin, they either cannot repent, or must, and have no say either way.
God most certainly did not create Satan’s evil ways as an evil thing to plague the human race, as you incorrectly suppose. Satan was originally created with all beauty, but Satan was puffed up with pride and sinned. The same sort of pride that the Roman church posseses in their claim to only have all the truth of Christ. Wrong presupposition! In Christ Grace Believers and Calvinist believers have the correct Biblical teaching directly by the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Not by presuppositions of the traditions of men, which Christ Jesus warned against, and Rome continues to ignore.
Election is corporate in the New Testament as it is in the Old. We are elect IN CHRIST. Apart from being IN CHRIST, we have nothing.
How do we come to be in Christ? The Calvinist argues God makes the decision independent of us to place some in Christ, and prevent others, and no one but God has any role to play.
But Jesus said:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3
Whosoever means who so ever, not those I picked before apart from any response by them. Whosoever is the opposite of election. There are no limits on the call of God to salvation. No irresistible inner call and unobeyable outer call, just the call to all to believe. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
We are chosen by God because God has chosen to save those who believe his Word, not because he chose a list of names to save, and another list of names to damn.
“these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” - John 20 By believing you may have life. NOT ‘He gives life so that you may believe’...
Our God is all powerful and all seeing. IOW, God knew what Satan would do from before creation and created him anyway.
Proof of individual believers - foolish error to deny God deals not with individual Grace Believers. GOD perfect Word proves you wrong. Read the Bible more carefully...which is impossible for Catholics to understand since they only follow their small god who, by Catholic standards, was unable to provide full and complete propitiation for all past sins and all future sins. Amazingly when God the Son, Christ Jesus, died on the cross: all sins of were future at the time of Christ cross...rejected by Catholics whom think incorrectly that a saved individual can lose their salvation after believing in the perfectly finished work of THE CROSS OF CHRIST.
1 - I’m Baptist, not Catholic. However, you should remember one is saved by encountering God, repenting and asking His forgiveness. Before you assign too many to hell, please remember that God doesn’t require any of us to pass a theology test to be saved.
2 - Of course God deals with individuals, but that is not the same as saying God has ELECTED individuals to salvation, and other individuals to damnation based on his whim. God commands all to repent and believe the Gospel, and those who do will be saved by the promise of God. Whosoever is the promise of God, and means whosoever.
Your posts drip with contempt for others. If you despise someone, you ignore their arguments and set up straw men that you then attack with relish, never realizing you are fighting an imaginary foe.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Interesting point. I haven't thought about the connection.
And God created man knowing that he would fall from His grace.
Therefore, is it accurate to say God is not the author of sin. God is the creator of everything.
Praise the Lord, if I had to pass a theology exam I would be lost for sure. :)
It seems to me that the argument about predestination and who the author of sin is are linked. In both cases God knows from before creation who will do what. If not then God is waiting and reacting to His creation not knowing what will happen.
Why is it so wrong for God to be the author of sin?
“Why is it so wrong for God to be the author of sin?”
That is usually interpreted, I believe, as meaning God is the CAUSE of sin. In a deterministic theology, God makes people commit sin, then judges them for doing what he forced them to do. That is like beating a dog who had diarrhea while shut up in an apartment. The final straw that forced me to leave the Baptist Church I had been a member of for 5 years was when I was told that God decided what sins he wanted me to commit and then made me do them. FWIW, I believe most Calvinists reject that idea, although I don’t know enough Calvinists to say for certain.
OTOH, if God gives us the right to make real choices, then we sin because it is our evil nature at work. We are slaves to sin, freely rolling in our vomit, so to speak. We sin because we like it, and because we cannot free ourselves. But Jesus came to set the captives free, and that is the Good News.
From a more Arminian position, God created a world where he knew there would be sin, because it also gave us the freedom to become his sons and he considered the end worth the process. He wasn’t surprised by the Fall, but had already planned for Jesus to rescue any who believed the promise of God.
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