Posted on 11/23/2010 12:14:36 AM PST by Cronos
***Many folks resist flowing in tongues because they refuse to give up any degree of !!!!CONTROL!!!!***
Durned right I don’t want to give up control for what I don’t trust! I’ve see too many preachers (including baptists) “work” their audience stirring them into frenzys and want no part this fraud. In such a stage of emotionalism you are open to bad influences bordering on exibitionism .
How do you think the snake handlers get people to do stupid things?
Do these names ring a bell?
Peter Poppoff
Robert Tilton
Jimmy Swaggert
Jim Baker
Billy James Hargis
O L Jaggers
A A Allen
These were frauds and hucksters within the penticostal movement and were exposed as such.
INDEED.
Seeking
Our
Almighty
King
I
N
G
Well put.
Thx.
Thanks for your kind reply.
I COR 14:
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
Good Order in Worship
26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[h]
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 14:2 Or in another language; also in verses 4, 13, 14, 19, 26 and 27
b.1 Corinthians 14:5 Or in other languages; also in verses 6, 18, 22, 23 and 39
c.1 Corinthians 14:5 Or in other languages; also in verses 6, 18, 22, 23 and 39
d.1 Corinthians 14:16 The Greek word for inquirer is a technical term for someone not fully initiated into a religion; also in verses 23 and 24.
e.1 Corinthians 14:21 Isaiah 28:11,12
f.1 Corinthians 14:34 Or peace. As in all the congregations of the Lord’s people, women
g.1 Corinthians 14:35 In a few manuscripts these verses come after verse 40.
h.1 Corinthians 14:38 Some manuscripts But anyone who is ignorant of this will be ignorant
—NIV
THE MESSAGE VERSION:
18-19I’m grateful to God for the gift of praying in tongues that he gives us for praising him, which leads to wonderful intimacies we enjoy with him. I enter into this as much or more than any of you. But when I’m in a church assembled for worship, I’d rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish.
20-25To be perfectly frank, I’m getting exasperated with your infantile thinking. How long before you grow up and use your head—your adult head? It’s all right to have a childlike unfamiliarity with evil; a simple no is all that’s needed there. But there’s far more to saying yes to something. Only mature and well-exercised intelligence can save you from falling into gullibility. It’s written in Scripture that God said,
In strange tongues
and from the mouths of strangers
I will preach to this people,
but they’ll neither listen nor believe.
So where does it get you, all this speaking in tongues no one understands? It doesn’t help believers, and it only gives unbelievers something to gawk at. Plain truth-speaking, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart of believers and doesn’t get in the way of unbelievers. If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can? But if some unbelieving outsiders walk in on a service where people are speaking out God’s truth, the plain words will bring them up against the truth and probe their hearts. Before you know it, they’re going to be on their faces before God, recognizing that God is among you.
26-33So here’s what I want you to do. When you gather for worship, each one of you be prepared with something that will be useful for all: Sing a hymn, teach a lesson, tell a story, lead a prayer, provide an insight. If prayers are offered in tongues, two or three’s the limit, and then only if someone is present who can interpret what you’re saying. Otherwise, keep it between God and yourself. And no more than two or three speakers at a meeting, with the rest of you listening and taking it to heart. Take your turn, no one person taking over. Then each speaker gets a chance to say something special from God, and you all learn from each other. If you choose to speak, you’re also responsible for how and when you speak. When we worship the right way, God doesn’t stir us up into confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches—no exceptions.
34-36Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God’s Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking. Do you—both women and men—imagine that you’re a sacred oracle determining what’s right and wrong? Do you think everything revolves around you?
37-38If any one of you thinks God has something for you to say or has inspired you to do something, pay close attention to what I have written. This is the way the Master wants it. If you won’t play by these rules, God can’t use you. Sorry.
39-40Three things, then, to sum this up: When you speak forth God’s truth, speak your heart out. Don’t tell people how they should or shouldn’t pray when they’re praying in tongues that you don’t understand. Be courteous and considerate in everything.
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERS:
18I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
19however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Instruction for the Church
20(AD)Brethren, (AE)do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil (AF)be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
21In (AG)the Law it is written, “(AH)BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord.
22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but (AI)prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that (AJ)you are mad?
24But if all (AK)prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is (AL)convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25(AM)the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will (AN)fall on his face and worship God, (AO)declaring that God is certainly among you.
26(AP)What is the outcome then, (AQ)brethren? When you assemble, (AR)each one has a (AS)psalm, has a (AT)teaching, has a (AU)revelation, has a (AV)tongue, has an (AW)interpretation Let (AX)all things be done for edification.
27If anyone speaks in a (AY)tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must (AZ)interpret;
28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29Let two or three (BA)prophets speak, and let the others (BB)pass judgment.
30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33for God is not a God of (BC)confusion but of peace, as in (BD)all the churches of the (BE)saints.
34The women are to (BF)keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but (BG)are to subject themselves, just as (BH)the Law also says.
35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
36Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37(BI)If anyone thinks he is a prophet or (BJ)spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you (BK)are the Lord’s commandment.
38But if anyone does not recognize this, he [a]is not recognized.
39Therefore, my brethren, (BL)desire earnestly to (BM)prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40But (BN)all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 14:38 Two early mss read is not to be recognized
Cross references:
A.1 Corinthians 14:1 : 1 Cor 16:14
B.1 Corinthians 14:1 : 1 Cor 12:31; 14:39
C.1 Corinthians 14:1 : 1 Cor 12:1
D.1 Corinthians 14:1 : 1 Cor 13:2
E.1 Corinthians 14:2 : Mark 16:17; 1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1; 14:18-ff
F.1 Corinthians 14:2 : 1 Cor 13:2
G.1 Corinthians 14:3 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:5, 12, 17, 26
H.1 Corinthians 14:3 : Acts 4:36
I.1 Corinthians 14:4 : Mark 16:17; 1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1; 14:18-ff, 26
J.1 Corinthians 14:4 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:5, 12, 17, 26
K.1 Corinthians 14:4 : 1 Cor 13:2
L.1 Corinthians 14:4 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:5, 12, 17, 26
M.1 Corinthians 14:5 : Mark 16:17; 1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1; 14:18-ff, 26
N.1 Corinthians 14:5 : Num 11:29
O.1 Corinthians 14:5 : Mark 16:17; 1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1; 14:18-ff, 26
P.1 Corinthians 14:5 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:4, 12, 17, 26
Q.1 Corinthians 14:6 : 1 Cor 14:26; Eph 1:17
R.1 Corinthians 14:6 : 1 Cor 12:8
S.1 Corinthians 14:6 : 1 Cor 13:2
T.1 Corinthians 14:6 : Acts 2:42; Rom 6:17; 1 Cor 14:26
U.1 Corinthians 14:8 : Num 10:9; Jer 4:19; Ezek 33:3-6; Joel 2:1
V.1 Corinthians 14:9 : 1 Cor 9:26
W.1 Corinthians 14:11 : Acts 28:2
X.1 Corinthians 14:12 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:4, 5, 17, 26
Y.1 Corinthians 14:15 : Acts 21:22; 1 Cor 14:26
Z.1 Corinthians 14:15 : Eph 5:19; Col 3:16
AA.1 Corinthians 14:16 : Deut 27:15-26; 1 Chr 16:36; Neh 5:13; 8:6; Ps 106:48; Jer 11:5; 28:6; Rev 5:14; 7:12
AB.1 Corinthians 14:16 : Matt 15:36
AC.1 Corinthians 14:17 : Rom 14:19; 1 Cor 14:4, 5, 12, 26
AD.1 Corinthians 14:20 : Rom 1:13
AE.1 Corinthians 14:20 : Eph 4:14; Heb 5:12
AF.1 Corinthians 14:20 : Ps 131:2; Matt 18:3; Rom 16:19; 1 Pet 2:2
AG.1 Corinthians 14:21 : John 10:34; 1 Cor 14:34
AH.1 Corinthians 14:21 : Is 28:11
AI.1 Corinthians 14:22 : 1 Cor 14:1
AJ.1 Corinthians 14:23 : Acts 2:13
AK.1 Corinthians 14:24 : 1 Cor 14:1
AL.1 Corinthians 14:24 : John 16:8
AM.1 Corinthians 14:25 : John 4:19
AN.1 Corinthians 14:25 : Luke 17:16
AO.1 Corinthians 14:25 : Is 45:14; Dan 2:47; Zech 8:23; Acts 4:13
AP.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 14:15
AQ.1 Corinthians 14:26 : Rom 1:13
AR.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 12:8-10
AS.1 Corinthians 14:26 : Eph 5:19
AT.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 14:6
AU.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 14:6
AV.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 14:2
AW.1 Corinthians 14:26 : 1 Cor 12:10; 14:5, 13, 27
AX.1 Corinthians 14:26 : Rom 14:19
AY.1 Corinthians 14:27 : 1 Cor 14:2
AZ.1 Corinthians 14:27 : 1 Cor 12:10; 14:5, 13, 26-ff
BA.1 Corinthians 14:29 : 1 Cor 13:2; 14:32, 37
BB.1 Corinthians 14:29 : 1 Cor 12:10
BC.1 Corinthians 14:33 : 1 Cor 14:40
BD.1 Corinthians 14:33 : 1 Cor 4:17; 7:17
BE.1 Corinthians 14:33 : Acts 9:13
BF.1 Corinthians 14:34 : 1 Cor 11:5, 13
BG.1 Corinthians 14:34 : 1 Tim 2:11; 1 Pet 3:1
BH.1 Corinthians 14:34 : 1 Cor 14:21
BI.1 Corinthians 14:37 : 2 Cor 10:7
BJ.1 Corinthians 14:37 : 1 Cor 2:15
BK.1 Corinthians 14:37 : 1 John 4:6
BL.1 Corinthians 14:39 : 1 Cor 12:31
BM.1 Corinthians 14:39 : 1 Cor 13:2; 14:1
BN.1 Corinthians 14:40 : 1 Cor 14:33
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
” I want nothing to do with an inactive God” — again a very good point — Our God is not an inactive God — He sent His only Son to us to save us.
INDEED.
LOL.
However, it is worth noting . . .
that while some introversion aspects are genetic in terms of temperament . . .
nevertheless . . . as a GENERAL RULE:
Those who
1. have an EXternal locus of control vs internal
and/OR
2. are shy, introverted
and/OR
3. are pessimistic vs optimistic
TEND TO HAVE
A) lower life satisfaction
B) lower immune system robustness
C) lower quality spouses
D) lower quality jobs & job satisfaction
E) lower incomes
Thankfully, ALL those traits can be greatly moderated, if not changed wholesale in authentic lasting ways with a lot of work and rewired thinking.
Oh dear.
I must be slipping.
Maybe I should redouble my efforts.
/joking.
I don’t find that
Almighty God is ever amused
when people throw out the baby with the bath water.
One of the enemy’s greatest achievements is to confuse issues with counterfeits.
God calls us to seek His face and His discernment.
He doesn’t give us a free pass for throwing in the towel and walking away from the issues in denial and stubbornness.
I once asked a man to describe "being slain in the spirit" for me. He went out every night to these meetings seeking that experience. He fell backward and passed out, sometimes for hours, just laying in the floor. Well any fool can achieve a blackout.
He reported nothing else-- just blacked out. He knew nothing about the bible or any doctrine--- he just dismissed it all as legalism.
***Giving up control? of our minds and bodies? That’s *spiritualism*. God seeks those to worship Him in spirit and in truth. that means with all faculties intact.***
I agree. Have you ever read Frasier’s THE GOLDEN BOUGH?
There is a section in there about the feast of Atis and how people lost control of themselves with the music chants, drums,blood, then would mutilate themselves while “in the spirit” you might say. When they regained their senses ,IT WAS TOO LATE! Because of the body parts they cut off they now were forever a priest of Atis. ;-D
Years ago I saw a photo of worshipers of the hindu monkey god speaking in “tongues” dancing” in the spirit” and I have no desire to allow ten devils worse than the first to find an open door to my body.
yes, it’s just voodoo-— a spirit, a demon, comes in and possesses the “worshipper”. No thanks. Jesus has dispossessed us from Satan (the parable of the strongman)It would be antiChristian to go back.
I'm especially interested in some of your theological claims. I hope you might be able to discuss the following claims:
12. Normally, for many years, my tongues praying, for all intents and purposes could be construed as something I initiate [Scripture indicates the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters]14. ... Holy Spirit is a gentleman. When we say we give up control, it’s a very relative thing. Virtually never will Holy Spirit take unfettered control ...The practical result may be AS THOUGH HE DID because no such individual person would DARE TO HINDER Holy Spirit’s flow—... However, the individual is still a sovereign individual in terms of his own body and faculties.
19. I still encourage anyone who is a bonafide Christian, ... to just pray in any sequence of sounds that they did not learn as a part of any known language and TRUST BY FAITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVEY HIS MEANING attached to those sounds—to The Father.
Here are some questions I have:
What is the exegetical basis for the claim that Scripture indicates that the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters and does that exegesis apply the "analogy of faith" rule? I don't expect you to give me a dissertation on that claim but if you know of any agreed upon work that most Pentecostals point to as authoritative in this respect I would be interested in reading it.
Likewise for #14. Does this claim have any Biblical reference or is this your personal anecdotal understanding.
Finally, all of these claims indicate that the individual must initiate the language. I guess I'm confused as to the meaning of why speaking in unintelligible sounds corresponds to actions taken by the Holy Spirit that's presented to the Father. Why do these unintelligible sounds bring the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit subject to take action when he hears these sounds? Why does God prefer that his children speak in unintelligible sounds over and on top of intelligible sounds?
I'm not meaning to be contentious here but as I read your claims I sense a form of paganism inherent which comes in the form of man being able to bring God down from heaven by speaking in a way that controls God's actions. To me it sounds like a different form of what Romanists claim. Romanists claim that by speaking a certain liturgy, i.e. ex opere operato, that God is subject to a certain action. So isn't Pentecostals speaking in tongues just a different form of Romanists sacramental theology?
I'd hate to see your answer when you *DID* have time.
BTW, is your caps lock broken?
Cheers!
Do note that introverted does not have to mean shy. It can mean folks who need downtime on their own. A very good example is comparing Italians to the English/Dutch. Neither of these temperaments is bad per se, but only if taken to extremes.
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is real. It happened to me years ago. I was seeking it; I still don’t understand it. Five words in the unknown tongue were just like - dropped - into my consciousness. I spoke them out, and then it came like a torrent. I suppose I don’t pray often enough in an unknown tongue, it’s been beaten down so bad by the modern church and its supposed sophistication. But, Lord knows, we sure do need all the uplifting and edification we can get in this day and age if it was ever needed. - Lord also knows we don’t have the faith and teaching in this era that we need as Christians. - However, tongues can become little more than “sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal”. There is so much more than just tongues, and the fruit of the Spirit is what I seek to be produced in me. Love, God Himself.
you mean Hanuman, the hindu monkey-god. however, it’s disingenous to compare with those
Brings to mind the old joke...
Q. How can you tell the difference between religion and sports?
A. In Church, you sing, "Stand up, stand up for Jesus."
But at the ballpark, you shout, "Sit down, for Christ's sake!"
Cheers!
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