Posted on 11/23/2010 12:14:36 AM PST by Cronos
Right now there are churches in almost every country which call themselves Baptists on the sign out front who, nevertheless, arc not Baptists, but in reality are Pentecostal churches.
....Pentecostalism is the belief that the miraculous gifts or signs which the Lord gave to the Apostles and others in the early churches have not ceased, but are still available and are still being exercised by today’s Christians. Pentecostalism claims that God still gives these miraculous gifts to men today. Lists of these gifts can be found in Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.
..God’s extraordinary gifts are called this in contrast to those He ordinarily gives in all ages. They are ordinarily not given, but rather were given on extraordinary occasions. These extraordinary gifts were supernatural gifts that enabled their possessors to perform supernatural deeds. Usually when Pentecostals today speak of the gifts or the charismata, they are speaking of these extraordinary gifts, that is, healing, miracles, tongues, direct revelations from God, casting out demons. Pentecostalism teaches that these miraculous gifts, these charismata, are still available to Christians today
(Excerpt) Read more at pbministries.org ...
Nature is where I find God the most and the deepest. Nature is where God gets my attention the most. His “rocks cry out” to me. I see his handiwork EVERYWHERE. And its at those times I’m at my quietest.
I’m with you there. The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament his handiwork.
Thanks for the ping!
“I am real conservative though. I pray with my head covered and I don’t believe women should speak in church.” —> I take it you are a lady (or as a funny line I once heard “a person of the female persuasion”)? Then the praying with your head covered makes a lot of conservative sense. I have reservations about the second, but that has been discussed on other threads and doesn’t need to be debated here
“Holy Spirit has not changed either.” Good point
1 COR 14 reads as “For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. “ —> what’s wrong with that? I don’t understand your post.
” I want nothing to do with an inactive God” — again a very good point — Our God is not an inactive God — He sent His only Son to us to save us.
Actually, it is catholic as in universal. The actions of pentecostalism (joy and singing at meetings) is a very good way to demonstrate and bring more people to Christ.
your posts are a lot more readable these days. Thank you!
Just like voting Democrat is instinctive as well? You either have a biblical worldview which comes from a regenerated mind or not.
I’m a bit rushed to respond well to this post.
Some such is nonsense and some such is not.
Many folks resist flowing in tongues because they refuse to give up any degree of !!!!CONTROL!!!!
and they refuse to risk looking or sounding foolish.
I believe tongues is a great humbler and that
THAT is one of the objectives from God’s perspective.
I just usually encourage folks to pray in a sequence of sounds not part of any language they know.
The Lord made clear to me years ago that it is a walk of faith as well as the rest of Christian life.
Usually, the initial “Holy Spirit electric goose bumps” subside eventually. Then it is a walk of faith.
The ‘known language’ issue is a . . . straw dog in most respects.
1. When a Christian learns to, IN FAITH, TRUST that Holy Spirit is putting HIS MEANING to the strange sequence of sounds in the perfect prayer to The Father, it is a great benefit as Scripture indicates. Praying in Holy Spirit builds up our spirit, strengthens our walk with God.
2. The functional, practical difference at the level of the tongues speaker is essentially irrelevant. It is indistinguishable for a non-super-linguist tongues speaker to discrimminate between an unknown “heavenly language” vs a non personally known earthly language . . . or maybe, occasionally, even vs human gibberish, to some degree.
3. However, whether children or adults manufacture a deliberate sequence of gibberish sounds as a game or exercise in gibberish, experienced tongues speakers and linguists can usually tell the difference.
4. There is some research indicating that some folks learn to mimic fairly average styles of tongues speaking.
5. I don’t find that to NECESSARILY be any big deal.
6. Yes, it is . . . more dramatic and wonderful when Holy Spirit descends on a person in a dramatically powerful and miraculous electric-goose bump filled EXPERIENCE where HE seems to flood in with great power, might, fervency, intensity etc.
7. For His own reasons, HE does not always do things that way. For many, HE SEEMS to insist that the individual walk by faith virtually from the beginning. That is, without a lot of EXPERENTIAL SENSATIONS and proofs of His presence and invovlement.
8. For others, there may be initial “HOLY SPIRIT GOOSE BUMPS” laden experiential phenomena which soon fade and do not follow the speaking in tongues exercise persistently over a long time. Then the person walks by faith.
9. WE KNOW THAT WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD IN THIS OR ANYTHING ELSE.
10. This was more the case for me. Thus, when God queried me at my asking him about the lack of experiential sensations—was I just making up the sounds myself without any Holy Spirit involvement, He indicated that I had to walk by faith and TRUST HOLY SPIRIT TO PUT HOLY SPIRIT’S MEANING TO THE SOUNDS IN THE PERFECT PRAYER TO THE FATHER . . . as Scripture more or less discusses.
11. A few weeks ago, I felt an urging in my spirit to pray for the Pastor after service. There was a lot of folks praying for one another in a long after service time of intense praying at the altar. I asked a black Sister who’s in charge of prayer efforts in our congregation to join me and she readily agreed but was mostly silent. I didn’t know how or what to pray and felt to just begin praying in tongues.
12. Normally, for many years, my tongues praying, for all intents and purposes could be construed as something I initiate [Scripture indicates the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters], generating the sounds in whatever manner seems to occur and flow. Most of the time, the sequence of sounds if more or less familiar and common to me.
13. However, on this occasion, Holy Spirit rose up within me in great intensity and fierceness that almost shocked me. There was a speed and intensity of flow that I haven’t felt for years. And, while I usually pray quite softly in tongues, I’m sure I could be heard quite clearly and loudly all over the large room. I had some impressions as this was going on but I couldn’t say emphatically what specific things were being prayed. My general sense was that there was some sort of strengthening, maybe even commissioning, imparting, anointing that was going on for future ministry on Pastor’s part.
14. Could I have started and stopped the flow at any time? Certainly. I certainly didn’t stop breathing! I could have stopped at any point and certainly at breathing points. Holy Spirit is a gentleman. When we say we give up control, it’s a very relative thing. Virtually never will Holy Spirit take unfettered control and force an individual’s muscles to work strictly and totally under Holy Spirit’s control. The practical result may be AS THOUGH HE DID because no such individual person would DARE TO HINDER Holy Spirit’s flow—it’s a most wonderful experience and feeling to cooperate at such times. However, the individual is still a sovereign individual in terms of his own body and faculties. It’s just that when we seek to be totally yielded to Holy Spirit and He obliges—it’s too wonderful to even imagine to hinder HIM in ANY way. We are too thrilled to go along for the ride.
15. Did I deliberately change the language I was praying in over Pastor? NOT AT ALL. It just FLOWED OUT DIFFERENTLY as Holy Spirit rose up with such force and uniqueness from deep within me.
16. It was in light of such that my close friend Judy Carter of the Pacific Northwest was praying in tonuges at the close of 3 different ministry sessions with 3 different tribes over a period of a week or 2 on a tour of such tribes. In each of the 3 cases, after she finished praying amidst the group praying at the close of the meetings, an older elder of each tribe came up to her and asked her where she had learned the older more eloquent form of their language.
17. She had not, at all. She had no clue that’s what she was praying in. She just assumed she was praying ‘in a heavenly language’ to God alone. Yet in each case in each tribe she had been praying a basic summary of the Gospel story in the older, almost extinct forms of the tribal languages.
18. Of course she was thrilled and her ministry and walk with the Lord was greatly affirmed.
19. I still encourage anyone who is a bonafide Christian, confessed up, repented up, prayed up etc. to just pray in any sequence of sounds that they did not learn as a part of any known language and TRUST BY FAITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVEY HIS MEANING attached to those sounds—to The Father. It doesn’t really have to be any more complicated than that.
20. Sure, teaching children to say glory glory glory etc. can end up hokey and falling flat. IT CAN ALSO LEAD THE CHILDREN OR ANYONE ELSE TO RELEASE ENOUGH DEATH GRIP CONTROL to allow Holy Spirit to move in and facilitate a new way of powerfully prayin IN HOLY SPIRIT’S LANGUAGE AND MEANING. Holy Spirit will not in a strong armed sort of way FORCE one’s muscles to move in various specific ways to make specific sounds. However, when one LEARNS to be a bit ‘looser’ in terms of making sounds, Holy Spirit has a freer authority and ‘respectfully easier’ time of facilitating our praying in tongues.
21. I realize that some folks’ theology and experiences do not allow for the realities I’ve described above. Tough tacos. At this point, I don’t give a flying rip. They can go suck rocks. I know what I know and have experienced repeatedly as real.
22. I know that God has facilitated many powerful insights in counseling as well as other ministry from my just praying quietly in tongues for a few moments until insight came or healing came or whatever else God wanted to do manifested. I’m not about to give that up. I’d be a fool to do so.
23. As has been wisely said . . . the one without and EXPERIENCE merely has an argument.
24. There used to be a lot of noise about naysayers re Pentecostal stuff that THE NAYSAYERS had a BIBLICAL *NOT* EXPERIENCED BASED theology/Christianity/Religion.
25. What a pile of barnyard dusty horse . . . hair.
26. NO ONE can have any AWARENESS THAT THE BIBLE EXISTS, MUCH LESS WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE, MUCH MUCH LESS THE POWER OF THE WORD OF GOD
. . . APART FROM
. . . . . . . . . . . AN EXPERIENCE . . . . .
OF THE WORD OF GOD.
What a looney straw dog such assertions were and are.
27. All of such above is NOT THAT DIFFERENT AT ALL FROM A COMMON EXPERIENCE OF VIRTUALLY EVERY AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN I’VE EVER KNOWN:
28. Every such Christian I’ve ever known has had repeated EXPERIENCES where they’ve been deeply burdened for days or weeks . . . over a very serious matter—job, health, deadly disease, moving, whatever . . . and suddenly, during one of their normal Bible reading times, a verse or phrase in a verse will “LEAP OFF THE PAGE” with great emotional intensity as God’s response to their travail, queries, concerns.
29. Speaking/praying in tongues is not significantly different from that sort of experience.
If it isn’t heartfelt adoration of the Lord, it is for the attention of man and they will have their reward, but it won’t be from him. How empty it must feel to go home afterwards knowing it was just for show.
INDEED.
Bose has an expensive set that’s purportedly good.
I think I got my JVC at Sam’s. They work well. I don’t know how they’d compare to Bose.
Best Buy migh have some, I don’t recall.
.
The practice (supposed or real) of the sign gifts in any given church proves nothing as to the spirituality of that church.
All of the gifts of 1 Corinthians ch. 12 were being practiced by the Corinthian believers, and yet the church was a CARNAL church, and to such an extent that there were revelations and mysteries that the Apostle could not teach them, because they were too CARNAL to receive them (ch. 3).
There is a rebuke of one error or another of which the Corinthians were guilty in almost every chapter of the book, including the allowance of gross immorality in the church (ch. 5).
Sometimes on the mission field, our folks are lured and deeply impressed by those who claim to be practicing all kinds of gifts. Not trying to deny that what experiences people claim really took place (we allow that EXPERIENCES take place that ARE supernatural in origin), we instruct them to be watchful of certain things:
1. What is actually the core doctrine of the people who claim having had the experiences? How do they identify Jesus Christ and the work of His Spirit from the words of the Scriptures themselves?
2. What is the common life, witness, and testimony (for Christ) of those people when they are not having such experiences?
3. What do they say is the purpose and fruit of those experiences, and can they take you to Scripture to correctly identify them, that doesn't actually break other Scriptures (?), for the Scriptures cannot be broken.
4. Do not assume that people who claim EXPERIENCES are necessarily any less CARNAL than the Corinthian believers were when they practiced the gifts in Corinth in the first century.
5. Are you seeking WISDOM as Gentile believers, or merely seeking SIGNS as the Jewish believers (1 Corinthians 1:22; 14:22). The Nation of Israel was founded upon signs, and therefore they expected signs to prove legitimacy.
We are accustomed to seeing outpourings of the Holy Spirit in the churches among who we fellowship, and we see very unusual things. AND we also recognize that in any meeting there are a certain number of people who attend looking first and foremost to see unusual manifestations, and to the extent that they will accept “WILD FIRE” that can be whipped up by fleshly emotion as being the genuine article.
But one of their problems, which usually shows out to be their error, is that they think the Holy Spirit will always work in an expected manner of which THEY want to see. If they don't see it, they will try to whip it up themselves.
The Holy Spirit is perfectly just as capable of moving in SILENCE, confounding those who are looking for a noise-fest. Those who are genuinely worshiping in Spirit and in Truth will recognize it, and those who are merely looking for a show . . . WON'T (unless they do get right with God in the meeting), and will leave disappointed and even complaining. That's okay, ‘cause they usually don't show up to hinder the next meeting, but go join the fonies instead.
Qx: I would add that often non Penetcostal types will throw rocks AS THOUGH such hideous problems did NOT occur in NON-Pentecostal churches.
THAT'S UTTER NONSENSE. They just have different flavors and white-wash in non-Pentecostal groups. Often, such carnalities are more devastating because they hide better under more polished and kosher RELIGIOUS GARB.
PRAISE GOD! AMEN! AMEN!
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