I’m a bit rushed to respond well to this post.
Some such is nonsense and some such is not.
Many folks resist flowing in tongues because they refuse to give up any degree of !!!!CONTROL!!!!
and they refuse to risk looking or sounding foolish.
I believe tongues is a great humbler and that
THAT is one of the objectives from God’s perspective.
I just usually encourage folks to pray in a sequence of sounds not part of any language they know.
The Lord made clear to me years ago that it is a walk of faith as well as the rest of Christian life.
Usually, the initial “Holy Spirit electric goose bumps” subside eventually. Then it is a walk of faith.
The ‘known language’ issue is a . . . straw dog in most respects.
1. When a Christian learns to, IN FAITH, TRUST that Holy Spirit is putting HIS MEANING to the strange sequence of sounds in the perfect prayer to The Father, it is a great benefit as Scripture indicates. Praying in Holy Spirit builds up our spirit, strengthens our walk with God.
2. The functional, practical difference at the level of the tongues speaker is essentially irrelevant. It is indistinguishable for a non-super-linguist tongues speaker to discrimminate between an unknown “heavenly language” vs a non personally known earthly language . . . or maybe, occasionally, even vs human gibberish, to some degree.
3. However, whether children or adults manufacture a deliberate sequence of gibberish sounds as a game or exercise in gibberish, experienced tongues speakers and linguists can usually tell the difference.
4. There is some research indicating that some folks learn to mimic fairly average styles of tongues speaking.
5. I don’t find that to NECESSARILY be any big deal.
6. Yes, it is . . . more dramatic and wonderful when Holy Spirit descends on a person in a dramatically powerful and miraculous electric-goose bump filled EXPERIENCE where HE seems to flood in with great power, might, fervency, intensity etc.
7. For His own reasons, HE does not always do things that way. For many, HE SEEMS to insist that the individual walk by faith virtually from the beginning. That is, without a lot of EXPERENTIAL SENSATIONS and proofs of His presence and invovlement.
8. For others, there may be initial “HOLY SPIRIT GOOSE BUMPS” laden experiential phenomena which soon fade and do not follow the speaking in tongues exercise persistently over a long time. Then the person walks by faith.
9. WE KNOW THAT WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD IN THIS OR ANYTHING ELSE.
10. This was more the case for me. Thus, when God queried me at my asking him about the lack of experiential sensations—was I just making up the sounds myself without any Holy Spirit involvement, He indicated that I had to walk by faith and TRUST HOLY SPIRIT TO PUT HOLY SPIRIT’S MEANING TO THE SOUNDS IN THE PERFECT PRAYER TO THE FATHER . . . as Scripture more or less discusses.
11. A few weeks ago, I felt an urging in my spirit to pray for the Pastor after service. There was a lot of folks praying for one another in a long after service time of intense praying at the altar. I asked a black Sister who’s in charge of prayer efforts in our congregation to join me and she readily agreed but was mostly silent. I didn’t know how or what to pray and felt to just begin praying in tongues.
12. Normally, for many years, my tongues praying, for all intents and purposes could be construed as something I initiate [Scripture indicates the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters], generating the sounds in whatever manner seems to occur and flow. Most of the time, the sequence of sounds if more or less familiar and common to me.
13. However, on this occasion, Holy Spirit rose up within me in great intensity and fierceness that almost shocked me. There was a speed and intensity of flow that I haven’t felt for years. And, while I usually pray quite softly in tongues, I’m sure I could be heard quite clearly and loudly all over the large room. I had some impressions as this was going on but I couldn’t say emphatically what specific things were being prayed. My general sense was that there was some sort of strengthening, maybe even commissioning, imparting, anointing that was going on for future ministry on Pastor’s part.
14. Could I have started and stopped the flow at any time? Certainly. I certainly didn’t stop breathing! I could have stopped at any point and certainly at breathing points. Holy Spirit is a gentleman. When we say we give up control, it’s a very relative thing. Virtually never will Holy Spirit take unfettered control and force an individual’s muscles to work strictly and totally under Holy Spirit’s control. The practical result may be AS THOUGH HE DID because no such individual person would DARE TO HINDER Holy Spirit’s flow—it’s a most wonderful experience and feeling to cooperate at such times. However, the individual is still a sovereign individual in terms of his own body and faculties. It’s just that when we seek to be totally yielded to Holy Spirit and He obliges—it’s too wonderful to even imagine to hinder HIM in ANY way. We are too thrilled to go along for the ride.
15. Did I deliberately change the language I was praying in over Pastor? NOT AT ALL. It just FLOWED OUT DIFFERENTLY as Holy Spirit rose up with such force and uniqueness from deep within me.
16. It was in light of such that my close friend Judy Carter of the Pacific Northwest was praying in tonuges at the close of 3 different ministry sessions with 3 different tribes over a period of a week or 2 on a tour of such tribes. In each of the 3 cases, after she finished praying amidst the group praying at the close of the meetings, an older elder of each tribe came up to her and asked her where she had learned the older more eloquent form of their language.
17. She had not, at all. She had no clue that’s what she was praying in. She just assumed she was praying ‘in a heavenly language’ to God alone. Yet in each case in each tribe she had been praying a basic summary of the Gospel story in the older, almost extinct forms of the tribal languages.
18. Of course she was thrilled and her ministry and walk with the Lord was greatly affirmed.
19. I still encourage anyone who is a bonafide Christian, confessed up, repented up, prayed up etc. to just pray in any sequence of sounds that they did not learn as a part of any known language and TRUST BY FAITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVEY HIS MEANING attached to those sounds—to The Father. It doesn’t really have to be any more complicated than that.
20. Sure, teaching children to say glory glory glory etc. can end up hokey and falling flat. IT CAN ALSO LEAD THE CHILDREN OR ANYONE ELSE TO RELEASE ENOUGH DEATH GRIP CONTROL to allow Holy Spirit to move in and facilitate a new way of powerfully prayin IN HOLY SPIRIT’S LANGUAGE AND MEANING. Holy Spirit will not in a strong armed sort of way FORCE one’s muscles to move in various specific ways to make specific sounds. However, when one LEARNS to be a bit ‘looser’ in terms of making sounds, Holy Spirit has a freer authority and ‘respectfully easier’ time of facilitating our praying in tongues.
21. I realize that some folks’ theology and experiences do not allow for the realities I’ve described above. Tough tacos. At this point, I don’t give a flying rip. They can go suck rocks. I know what I know and have experienced repeatedly as real.
22. I know that God has facilitated many powerful insights in counseling as well as other ministry from my just praying quietly in tongues for a few moments until insight came or healing came or whatever else God wanted to do manifested. I’m not about to give that up. I’d be a fool to do so.
23. As has been wisely said . . . the one without and EXPERIENCE merely has an argument.
24. There used to be a lot of noise about naysayers re Pentecostal stuff that THE NAYSAYERS had a BIBLICAL *NOT* EXPERIENCED BASED theology/Christianity/Religion.
25. What a pile of barnyard dusty horse . . . hair.
26. NO ONE can have any AWARENESS THAT THE BIBLE EXISTS, MUCH LESS WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE, MUCH MUCH LESS THE POWER OF THE WORD OF GOD
. . . APART FROM
. . . . . . . . . . . AN EXPERIENCE . . . . .
OF THE WORD OF GOD.
What a looney straw dog such assertions were and are.
27. All of such above is NOT THAT DIFFERENT AT ALL FROM A COMMON EXPERIENCE OF VIRTUALLY EVERY AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN I’VE EVER KNOWN:
28. Every such Christian I’ve ever known has had repeated EXPERIENCES where they’ve been deeply burdened for days or weeks . . . over a very serious matter—job, health, deadly disease, moving, whatever . . . and suddenly, during one of their normal Bible reading times, a verse or phrase in a verse will “LEAP OFF THE PAGE” with great emotional intensity as God’s response to their travail, queries, concerns.
29. Speaking/praying in tongues is not significantly different from that sort of experience.
***Many folks resist flowing in tongues because they refuse to give up any degree of !!!!CONTROL!!!!***
Durned right I don’t want to give up control for what I don’t trust! I’ve see too many preachers (including baptists) “work” their audience stirring them into frenzys and want no part this fraud. In such a stage of emotionalism you are open to bad influences bordering on exibitionism .
How do you think the snake handlers get people to do stupid things?
Do these names ring a bell?
Peter Poppoff
Robert Tilton
Jimmy Swaggert
Jim Baker
Billy James Hargis
O L Jaggers
A A Allen
These were frauds and hucksters within the penticostal movement and were exposed as such.
I'm especially interested in some of your theological claims. I hope you might be able to discuss the following claims:
12. Normally, for many years, my tongues praying, for all intents and purposes could be construed as something I initiate [Scripture indicates the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters]14. ... Holy Spirit is a gentleman. When we say we give up control, it’s a very relative thing. Virtually never will Holy Spirit take unfettered control ...The practical result may be AS THOUGH HE DID because no such individual person would DARE TO HINDER Holy Spirit’s flow—... However, the individual is still a sovereign individual in terms of his own body and faculties.
19. I still encourage anyone who is a bonafide Christian, ... to just pray in any sequence of sounds that they did not learn as a part of any known language and TRUST BY FAITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVEY HIS MEANING attached to those sounds—to The Father.
Here are some questions I have:
What is the exegetical basis for the claim that Scripture indicates that the Spirit is subject to the individual in such matters and does that exegesis apply the "analogy of faith" rule? I don't expect you to give me a dissertation on that claim but if you know of any agreed upon work that most Pentecostals point to as authoritative in this respect I would be interested in reading it.
Likewise for #14. Does this claim have any Biblical reference or is this your personal anecdotal understanding.
Finally, all of these claims indicate that the individual must initiate the language. I guess I'm confused as to the meaning of why speaking in unintelligible sounds corresponds to actions taken by the Holy Spirit that's presented to the Father. Why do these unintelligible sounds bring the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit subject to take action when he hears these sounds? Why does God prefer that his children speak in unintelligible sounds over and on top of intelligible sounds?
I'm not meaning to be contentious here but as I read your claims I sense a form of paganism inherent which comes in the form of man being able to bring God down from heaven by speaking in a way that controls God's actions. To me it sounds like a different form of what Romanists claim. Romanists claim that by speaking a certain liturgy, i.e. ex opere operato, that God is subject to a certain action. So isn't Pentecostals speaking in tongues just a different form of Romanists sacramental theology?
I'd hate to see your answer when you *DID* have time.
BTW, is your caps lock broken?
Cheers!
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is real. It happened to me years ago. I was seeking it; I still don’t understand it. Five words in the unknown tongue were just like - dropped - into my consciousness. I spoke them out, and then it came like a torrent. I suppose I don’t pray often enough in an unknown tongue, it’s been beaten down so bad by the modern church and its supposed sophistication. But, Lord knows, we sure do need all the uplifting and edification we can get in this day and age if it was ever needed. - Lord also knows we don’t have the faith and teaching in this era that we need as Christians. - However, tongues can become little more than “sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal”. There is so much more than just tongues, and the fruit of the Spirit is what I seek to be produced in me. Love, God Himself.