Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
The ultimate intention of Catholicism is the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. That has always been the ambition, at least covertly, but now it is being promoted overtly and openly.
The purpose of this article is only to make that intention clear. It is not a criticism of Catholics or Catholicism (unless you happen to think a Catholic dictatorship is not a good thing).
The most important point is to understand that when a Catholic talks about liberty or freedom, it is not individual liberty that is meant, not the freedom to live one's life as a responsible individual with the freedom to believe as one chooses, not the freedom to pursue happiness, not the freedom to produce and keep what one has produced as their property. What Catholicism means by freedom, is freedom to be a Catholic, in obedience to the dictates of Rome.
The Intentions Made Plain
The following is from the book Revolution and Counter-Revolution:
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"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization
"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.
"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.
"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.
"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.
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Got that? "Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church." The other name for this is called "totalitarianism," the complete rule of every aspect of life.
This book and WEB sites like that where it is found are spreading like wildfire. These people do not believe the hope of America is the restoration of the liberties the founders sought to guarantee, these people believe the only hope for America is Fatima. Really!
In Their Own Words
The following is from the site, "RealCatholicTV." It is a plain call for a "benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch;" their own words. They even suggest that when the "Lord's Payer," is recited, it is just such a Catholic dictatorship that is being prayed for.
[View video in original here or on Youtube. Will not show in FR.]
Two Comments
First, in this country, freedom of speech means that anyone may express any view no matter how much anyone else disagrees with that view, or is offended by it. I totally defend that meaning of freedom of speech.
This is what Catholics believe, and quite frankly, I do not see how any consistent Catholic could disagree with it, though I suspect some may. I have no objection to their promoting those views, because it is what they believe. Quite frankly I am delighted they are expressing them openly. For one thing, it makes it much easier to understand Catholic dialog, and what they mean by the words they use.
Secondly, I think if their views were actually implemented, it would mean the end true freedom, of course, but I do not believe there is any such danger.
They have already done it, it is called a catechism.. that Catholics are bound to accept on faith as true and accurate and speaking for God..no humility there :)
The problem is the Catechism uses proof texts , sometimes out of context.. that a clearly written systematic scriptural Theology text or even a solid commentary would not allow for..
MD, I think that have not done it because they can not and keep much of what they call doctrine
Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
I didn't say pride was necessary either way, but possible either way.
When we end up with a cruel and unjust God who creates trash and robots, yes, we have diminished our understanding of God, we have perverted it. I'm sorry, that is the unavoidable conclusion, IMHO, of the Westminster Confession of Faith on predestination that I posted earlier.
The synergistic view of God is a false doctrine
If by "synergistic" you mean a real relationship with real human being, no. True doctrine has to at least start with the obvious scriptural and experience of reality - we have free will, we make choices, choices have consequences, God loves us and wishes us to make good choices. As one poster put it, if you can't put "Jesus Loves Me." on a t-shirt to distribute, your doctrine has gone off the rails somewhere.
Instead these books become nothing more than moral teachings.
Natural law and morality only come from God. Moral teachings plus the supernatural. Who we are, how we deal with other people, who we are in relation to creation and our relationship to God. If you teach a God who acts immorally, your "more than moral teaching" becomes less than moral - not of God.
Remember, we teach Grace, we teach Salvation, faith, Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Light. This is more than just ethics.
Without "synergism," if this is what you mean, then man is removed from the equation. There is no relationship with robots. Man becomes God by proxy - and all kinds of theological problems result.
where does your faith come from-from God or from man?
I see you don't quite understand the concept of synergy used in the meaning of cooperation. Everything good that comes to us or through us is from God, but we can say no. If we cannot, we might as well not exist, the whole of human history, the whole of Jesus's ministry becomes a farce.
I wouldn't characterize them as proud. Rather I would say they have not moved from the elementary understanding of the scriptures. There is in all of us a tendancy not to acknowledge God working in everything. Until one comes to the conclusion that God controls everything-even making the blind to see-we cannot move on to the meat of the gospel.
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." -- Job 12:9-10 "Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
I am so angry at this post that I have to struggle to be civil. Let me explain why. YOU asked why the Magisterium did not write a book of systematic theology. I answered.
Your retort to my answer reveals (to me) that you do not know what systematic theology is or what a catechism is or what the duty of the Catholic to the catechism is.
Ant, not knowing, you present it inn the most inflammatory (and ignorant an incorrect light.)
I do not know of any reason to take the catechism as Infallible. I do think that it is the best current source of what we think and teach, but we do not claim everything we teach and think is infallible. SOME, yes. ALL, know.
If this is news to you, then once again, darn it, you have displayed an incorrect understanding of the Catholic Church and done so in a needlessly confrontative manner.
I simply do not understand why your side does this so much. It would seem to me that the NORMAL and REASONABLE course would be to deliberately and CALMLY find out exactly what the case is. THEN, having assured oneself that passion and so forth had not corrupted the 'fact-finding' part of the process, THEN and only then could one proceed to judgement.
But you do not know:
- the difference between a catechism and a work of systematic theology
- the belief the faithful are considered to owe the catechism>
And then, having accused us of publishing an authoritative work of systematic theology in the Catechism, you turn around and agree with me that the Magisterium has NOT published a work of systematic theology~!
So which is it?
Or did you just make this bogus concession as a lead in to a contemptuous remark that "they" (And WHO EXACTLY are 'they'?) cannot "keep much of what they call doctrine."
I would suggest this understanding does not reflect the nature of God. People are under the impression that everyone would want to go to heaven and that God somehow forbid people to do that. The conclusion would be just as you've portrayed it.
Well, what would happen if instead people really want to go to hell? We know God and what He is like but instead of wanting Him, we want to go to hell. In this case God would be on a rescue mission to save some of His people. He would be dragging us out of Egypt. This would certainly paint God in a different light.
I would suggest that Romans 1-3 paint people exactly as wanting to go the hell. They don't seek after God. Some may say why did God create man this way, but Paul answers this with his potter-clay analogy. We cannot presume to know the mind of God except that in everything it is right, holy, and just-filled with love.
we have free will, we make choices
You cannot make choices until you are set free by the Son. Otherwise, what exactly are you being set free from?
As one poster put it, if you can't put "Jesus Loves Me." on a t-shirt to distribute, your doctrine has gone off the rails somewhere.
I would have loved to see Jesus handing out those t-shirts to the Pharisees who He called "sons of the devil" or the "brood of vipers" crowd.
Without "synergism," if this is what you mean, then man is removed from the equation. There is no relationship with robots.
The relationship begins once God opens the eyes of a person and helps them to hear the gospel.
Everything good that comes to us or through us is from God, but we can say no.
I think its a bit persumptious to think we can say no to God. Jonah tried it and it didn't work. If you think I'm wrong, just try it yourself.
And that is predetermined, and you cannot choose otherwise before, your choices are predetermined afterward.
This is not human choice, by any stretch of the word.
I am of course describing the view according to Westminster Confession.
People do it every day, you likely included, all over the world.
The chief virtue of this thread is that it has made clear that, with one or two exceptions only, the, what, lust to denigrate Catholic thought and Catholic people is so very strong that the average anti-Catholic simply is unable to entertain the idea that he might not understand enough to form the judgment he is so set on making.
I seem to recall from the Pilgrim's Progress a man who threw mud at a figure in white. As I recall the figure in white was never stained, as the man who hurled mud got increasingly angry and vicious.
The author of a Pilgrim's Progress was a protestant of some kind. I think the Protestants here might profit from reading it.
Having been on the receiving end of a post which revealed as clearly as it needs to be revealed that the person to whom I was posting was more concerned with being able to give ignorant and uncomprehending offense than with being factual, gentle, or just, I think I will take my leave from this thread.
Bless you all.
AMEN!
Indeed. The alternative seems to be everybody making up stuff on their own and calling it 'Holy Spirit'.
LOLOL. Times change and so does Rome, eh?
Sorry, but Limbo was taught as doctrine by the Roman Catholic church for decades if not centuries.
Consider the Baltimore Catechism (keeping in mind you said Rome has "NEVER suggested Limbo as anything more than a THEORY"...)
A. The hell into which Christ's soul descended was not the hell of the dammed, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him. Q. 403. Why did Christ descend into Limbo? A. Christ descended into Limbo to preach to the souls who were in prison -- that is, to announce to them the joyful tidings of their redemption. Q. 404. Where was Christ's body while His soul was in Limbo? A. While Christ's soul was in Limbo His body was in the holy sepulchre. Q. 402. Did Christ's soul descend into the hell of the damned?
YADA YADA YADA...
thanks for your posts.
God bless..
From the trusty Catholic Encyclopedia: "it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the "children's limbo."
The citation you produced refers to the Limbo of the Fathers... the actual Limbo. As you can see the Limbo of the Infants isn't doctrinal.
It is the belief that God is loving and merciful and that he desires all to be saved that comforts me and gives me peace about people I love who do not (yet) trust in Jesus as their savior. I know it is ultimately between them and God and that I cannot be responsible for whether or not a person is saved or not. I can only be faithful to do what he has asked me to do and that is to preach the gospel in both word and deed - I honestly believe it is the main reason we are not whisked off to heaven the moment we believe. We are to be a light to the world pointing all to Christ. It is this very commission he gave us that leads me to understand that ALL have to come to that point in their lives when they decide what they are to do with the light God has given them.
I understand that neither Calvin nor Luther nor Arminius nor any other theologian has the corner on absolute truth regarding free will and predestination. I can try to see the picture that encompasses all the doctrines that are based on Scripture and conclude that we really won't know the big picture until we have been given the mind of Christ - because that is what it will take to grasp the fullness of it all. What I DO know is that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone - on this we can know God has not left us to wonder.
Didn't someone quote this source earlier in this thread? I remember it also said something to the effect that they would enjoy a state of perfect happiness BUT that it was not the full "beatific" experience of heaven in the presence of God Almighty. Does it really say that?
Please take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia, limbo is alive and well in Catholic belief.
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