Posted on 07/25/2010 3:35:08 AM PDT by GonzoII
Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.
This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.
“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.
“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”
He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.
Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.
The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.
In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.
Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.
(Excerpt) Read more at therecord.com.au ...
Lets see....If all things were created by him and through him (him=Jesus according to Colossians), that would include Mary, who then is obviously the daughter of Jesus.
In common understanding,”mother” means the one who gives life to, is the source of and origin of. God is not and was not dependent upon Mary. That is backwards. He would have chosen another had Mary refused.
I agree with this in that God will judge man on his acts/works not his thoughts or words.
Spread the word by Voice and examples, both are required.
Both of which helped me to find my way back into the Catholic ChurchCongratulations! And welcome Home!!
I have not quite “reconciled” yet but it sure feels like “home” again.I'll ask Mary's intercession for your complete reconciliation ...
“If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not God and there is no Trinity”
So what your saying is if there is no Mary then Jesus would never have existed?
Jesus was God before the world began, He created it remember? Therefore Jesus was God before Mary existed.
Your statement implies the reverse which is heresy.
THX THX.
INDEED.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
THX. WELL PUT.
You wrote:
“Lets see....If all things were created by him and through him (him=Jesus according to Colossians), that would include Mary, who then is obviously the daughter of Jesus.”
The Second Person of the Trinity created Mary. Jesus was born of Mary. Jesus is both God and Man.
“In common understanding,”mother” means the one who gives life to, is the source of and origin of.”
Actually among many ancient peoples it was commonly believed the Father gave life to the child but passed the offspring onto the mother who then gave birth. That’s why the “father’s seed” is such an important idea in the Old Testament and in Jewish understanding.
“God is not and was not dependent upon Mary.”
No, He was not dependent upon her, but He chose to become her Son as a little baby.
“That is backwards. He would have chosen another had Mary refused.”
But Mary never would have and He already knew that.
BBBBBUUUUTTTTT
IT’S
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You wrote:
“So what your saying is if there is no Mary then Jesus would never have existed?”
No, that is not what I am saying. However, the story as we know it would be different. There would have been no Mary or Joseph, none of His cousins, etc. But Mary would never have refused God. And God knew that.
“Jesus was God before the world began, He created it remember? Therefore Jesus was God before Mary existed.”
The Second Person of the Trinity already existed. Jesus, however, was born as a little baby. Mary existed before Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was both Man and God. As such He did not exist until He was conceived in Mary’s womb. Before that He was divine, but only a spirit and not a man of flesh.
“Your statement implies the reverse which is heresy.”
Nope. Nothing I ever say implies any heresy. I understand that Jesus - God and Man - came only to be when conceived in Mary’s womb. Before that He was only spirit like His Father. This is the ancient Christian teaching and it agrees entirely with John 1.
The church being one of the oldest institutions makes it one of the most difficult to exercise introspection and change. This doesn’t only happen in the Catholic church, but many churches who have seen similar behavior come to light have used the same methods to sweep it under the rug. In fact, many non-religious organizations have also done the exact same thing.
I am glad to see this is changing and maybe the fact that it is will effect others to change in the same way.
“worshiping is faith in a God intersection is asking for ones help in asking God for help”
Yes but both Abraham and Moses were alive at the time and made those decisions to intercede on their own, your belief that (in this case) Mary has the ability, while in heaven to hear the thousands/millions(?) of personal requests for her intersession in one’s life attributes powers to her that only God possesses, omnipresence for one among others.
Furthermore, do you truly believe that every thought we have just floats up to heaven for all to hear? Perish the thought.
But if not every thought, then which ones and who controls which ones make it to heaven. God knows all our thoughts so if we start our prayer to Mary does God then ‘redirect’ it to Mary then sit back and get out of the way and only Mary hears us then?
In my opinion its an insult to my Lord Jesus who suffered and died for all sins to be shunned by those He died for as we pray to His earthly mother instead of Him.
The Bible teaches us different:
1 Titus 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
thatjoeguy:
No, that is not what he is saying. Christ is a “Divine Person” that is consubstantial with the Father and is one and the same substance, yet is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. Mary gave birth to the 2nd Person of the Trinity and that person was “True God” and “True Man” having both a Divine Nature and Human Nature.
What it actually is stating is that without Mary, there is no Incarnation but Christ, who assumed Human nature, can’t be seen as 2 Persons [Nestorianism], nor can it say that Christ became God at some point after the Incarnation, which leads to “Adoptionism” which is related to or a by-product of Nestorian heresy.
It usually ain't a very wise move to diss the King's mom. :-)
Cheers!
I don't even know what it is.
Cheers!
Mary was a daughter of the race of Adam and therefore did not pre exist the earth.
You might want to re-think that claim in light of Ephesians 1:4 ...?
Cheers!
The graven image part of the first commandment is conspicuously missing.
“You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them; “
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