Posted on 07/25/2010 3:35:08 AM PDT by GonzoII
Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.
This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.
“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.
“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”
He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.
Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.
The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.
In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.
Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.
(Excerpt) Read more at therecord.com.au ...
(Rev 8:3,4) “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.”
Which, in the absence of any example of any believer praying to anyone else in heaven but the Lord, or instructions thereto, is invoked in support of prayer to the depart, as its presumes that this shows that God had not received them directly, and thus there is need for the angels to send them up to God, and out of which the need for departed saints as intercessors is then extrapolated.
At best, this might inspire but not sanction prayer to angels, but this does not show the need for praying to such as intercessors, or otherwise establish that God does not directly receive individual prayers, any more than the Old Testament saints had to wait for the priest to offer up incense, (Lev 16:12,13; Lk. 1:9,10) this being emblematic of prayer, ( Psa. 141:2; Rev. 5:8) before God would receive them.
The angels here are not making intercession for others, nor continually gathering batches of “knee mail” for God to answer, and the subject here is not about answering prayer. Rather, the
angelic function here is understood as collectively offering the prayers with incense as a memorial, representing the pleas of the saints, preparatory for judgment upon the earth which hated them.
In Rev. 5:8 we see that the 24 elders have “golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints” and it is again in a memorial sense, just David said that God had all his tears in His bottle. (Ps. 56:8)
Rather than having batches of prayers constantly being delivered for God to answer, the Bible declares that believers may “come boldly before the throne of grace,” (Heb. 4:15) being able to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Heb. 10:19) which certainly does not infer rerouting of an angelic secretary. Praise the Lord, to whom we are exhorted to draw nigh to, (Ja. 4:8) and not to angels or any others. The temple is where God met with man.
As for intercessors, it is Jesus who ever makes intercession for the redeemed, (Heb. 7:25) as His Spirit in the saints makes intercession for them according to the will of God. (Rm. 8:26,27)
You wrote:
“The graven image part of the first commandment is conspicuously missing.”
Incorrect. First of all, who defines that as part of the first commandment? Not God. He didn’t break them down according to any particular numbering system that is explained anywhere in scripture.
The page I linked to clearly says this:
I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
The Catechetical Formula does not state all of that. It was written so that illiterate people could know the commandments in an easy-to-memorize way. Any Christian who knew the first commandment according to that way knew not to worship man-made images. Period.
You wrote:
“But, by your own admission then Mary is NOT the mother of God (2nd Person of the Trinity) she is the mother of Jesus (the man). Which is my point all along.”
Incorrect. Jesus is God. Mary is His mother. Mary is the Mother of God.
“Calling or claiming her as the mother of God is either misleading or heresy one or the other.”
Nope. The heresy is yours - it’s called Nestorianism.
“Either way that phrase shouldn’t be used and neither should she be prayed to for reasons I set forth in another post on this thread.”
Incorrect. That phrase should be used because it is true, Christ is God and His mother is Mary and Mary should be invoked for intercession.
NO, he was not...Read the scripture...What are you going to say the next time, 'was not Peter given the throne of heaven'???
How can you quote the scriptures wrong and then expect for anyone to think you have a clue what you are talking about???
You may also BELIEVE the earth is square...So what???
Elizabeth was seeing the Messiah, as promised in the OT...She was looking for Jesus, NOT the Father...
However; Jesus tells us that to even think about performing sin, is still sin...If a person has committed sin (which we all do), the thought came up first...So Jesus WILL judge folks on their thoughts...UNLESS,
One has turned to Jesus and received the Grace and Righteousness of Jesus and the free gift of Salvation offered by Jesus to those that trust in Him, Who has cleansed us from ALL sin...
So then is this indicating more something in the future rather than where we are now in the church age?
It doesn't make any difference what your ancient teaching says...
Jesus was manifest in the flesh many times in the Old Testament...But not as Jesus...As the Angel of the Lord...
You don't know that Jesus was a spirit...Likely he was a combination of spirit and soul...But I don't know and neither does your ancient religion...
I am a little confused by your statement that only Catholics and your Eastern brothers and sisters through the Eucharist can have a relationship with Jesus. As an Evangelical, I understand the claim that your church, and your church only, has the full truth of the Gospel. While I don’t accept that claim, I believe my understanding of your church’s position is correct. If I’m wrong I’m sure that some well informed Catholic will correct me. On the other hand I believe that your church acknowledges that those who are “separated brethren” have “some” of the truth. As a sinner saved by Grace I have a personal relationship with God through Christ. I am suggesting to you that your statement seems to be out of step with the position of your church.
That's true...But the priest now have to learn the Mexican language...
Thanks again...CW
Debates, Ray vs. James White, others:
http://vintage.aomin.org/This%20Bereans%20passage.html
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?amount=0&blogid=1&query=Steve+Ray
Hmmm,
We don’t know all of God’s rules and what ever rules God might have,God makes and can change whenever God wants. Because God is God. Almighty.
I can only share with you my perspective on these matters,I’m not an expert,or Theologian. So about the idea that the death of Jesus on the Cross was a ransom,I respectfully disagree. He sacrificed Himself of His own free will. That was the act of salvation,showing that we can chose of our free will to act sinfully or honor and obey god.
I have never met a priest who did not know multiple languages, whether it was the priests of my youth who spoke Polish, German, Italian, Czech, Portuguese, Spanish, and French to minister the needs of their parishioner or the priests of today who speak "Mexican" (Spanish, Mayan, or Mosquito?), Vietnamese, Tamil, Hindi, Tagalog, and Mandarin.
To continue...that we can be united with God in everlasting life,Jesus died and rose again.
The God of the Bible does not change, nor does His perfect holiness or justice, and man, having broken God’s good laws and misused the good things God gave us, fails of the holiness needed to dwell with Him, as evil will not, (Ps. 5:4) and our sins have separated us, (Is. 59:2) and made us subject to His perfect justice. Only by means of an “unblemished” animal who will provide the perfect sacrifice needed to procure our forgivesness, and a “scapegoat” who will bear our sins, so that we declared righteous, can be saved.
In Lev. 16 and Is. 53 we see both, with the former being the type and the latter being the fulfillment.
(Lev 16:15-16) “Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: {16} And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.”
(Lev 16:21) “And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:”
(Lev 16:33-34) “And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. {34} And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.”
(Lev 17:11) “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”
(Isa 53:6) “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
(Isa 53:10) “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
(1 Pet 2:24) “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
(1 Pet 3:18) “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”
(2 Cor 5:21) “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
(Rom 4:4-5) “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
(Rom 10:9-10) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
I Believe this is what I am referring to:
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
So I guess there is something to it in the scripture.
This also is where many religions fall from catholic faith in that this was the basis of confession I do believe. There are other here much more educated in the canon law that could confirm this.
You wrote:
“It doesn’t make any difference what your ancient teaching says...”
Yes, actually it does. It makes no difference what YOU say. It most certainly makes a difference what the ancient teachings say.
“Jesus was manifest in the flesh many times in the Old Testament...But not as Jesus...As the Angel of the Lord...”
Mary gave birth to Jesus. She did not give birth to any other manifestation of God. Thus, your point is meaningless.
“You don’t know that Jesus was a spirit...”
Yes, I do. John 1 makes that pretty clear that the Second Person had no body until the incarnation.
“Likely he was a combination of spirit and soul...”
No. God is simple. By definition He must be. Jesus only came to possess a soul when He came to possess humanity. Before that He was merely spirit just like His Father and the Holy SPIRIT (notice that? SPIRIT). God originally would not have a soul of His own for souls are created things. They are spiritual, but created nonetheless. Until the Second Person of the Trinity became man, He possessed no soul. He would not possess a spiritual substance reserved for created beings (like us!) until he took on the flesh created beings had. In other words, once the Second Person became Man, He then had a soul much like man would have had. The difference in His soul was that it had no stain of sin.
“But I don’t know and neither does your ancient religion...”
You don’t know. We do know. That’s why I trust the ancient teachings and ignore what you believe. You ignore the ancient teachings - including those in scripture.
While some do not Mary as a demi-goddess, some are less retrained, and Rome pretty much gives those who go to extremes a free reign, yet even praying to Mary is not Biblical.
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ (St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv. 4) ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
‘O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.’” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #9.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
.When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....Mary is this glorious intermediary...” Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: ‘Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.’”Pope Leo XIII, in Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 8, 1894, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm
All gifts which the Author of all good (God) has deigned to communicate to the unhappy posterity of Adam, are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin.” Pope Benedict XV (AAS 9, 1917, 266) (quoted in “About Our Lady, our Blessed Mother”, by Our Lady’s Warriors).
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/abtmary.htm
“The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX, in Ubi Primum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1849, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ubipr2.htm
“In conclusion: we may say that, in virtue of the divine salvific counsels ordaining a most perfect redemption, our Lady as Coredemptrix is included with Christ, the One Mediator.” Rev. Fr. Peter Damian M. Fehlner, F.F.I., professor of Catholic Theology, in Immaculata Mediatrix — Toward a Dogmatic Definition of the Coredemption.
http://www.voxpopuli.org/book_2_10.php
“Pope Pius XII explains in an address on the Queenship of Mary, ‘when the glorious Virgin Mary entered triumphantly into heaven and was elevated above the choirs of angels to the throne of the Most Holy Trinity.’ And then Christ ‘placed a triple crown of glory on her head, presented her to the heavenly court, seated her at his right hand and pronounced her Queen of the Universe.’...Opus Sanctorum Angelorum, Formation Letter, “Mary - ‘Regina Angelorum’”, April, 2000.
http://www.opusangelorum.org/Formation/Maryregina.html
And more laudatory titles than ever seem afforded to Jesus:
Advocate of grace,
Champion of God’s people,
Cause of our joy,
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
God’s masterpiece.
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Gracious Lady,
Model of virtue,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Minister of holiness,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Pride of the human race,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe
Seat of wisdom,
Sinless Mother,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Splendor of the Church,
From the “Litany of Loreto”
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
And yes, Mother of God
Mar 10:45The Greek word translated as ransom in this verse is λύτρον ("lytron") and is defined as 'the price paid for ransom or redemption of a captives or slaves.'For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
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