Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[Cronos]

1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?

4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned

5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God

7. Nowhere does Scripture reduce God's word down to Scripture ALONE. Instead the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is found in The Church: in Tradition (2 Th 2:15, 3:6) and in the Church teaching (1 Pet 1:25, 2 Pet 1:20-21, Mt 18:17). This supports the Church principle of sola verbum Dei, 'the Word of God alone'.

8. The New Testament was compiled at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, both of which sent off their judgements to Rome for the Pope's approval.

9. Yet, the people HAD the Canon, the Word of God before the scriptures were compiled, and even before some were written

10. Books that were revered in the 1st and 2nd centuries were left out of canon. Book slike the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Paul. Why?

11. There were disputes over 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, yet they are in Scripture. Whose decision was trustworthy and final, if the Church doesn't teach with infallible authority?

12. How are Protestants sure that the 27 books of the New Testaments are themselves the infallible Word of God if fallible Church councils and Patriarchs are the ones who made up or approved the list (leaving out the Acts of Paul, yet leaving in Jude and Revelation)?

13. Or do Protestants have a fallible collection of infallible documents? And how do they know that Jude is infallible? And how do they know that the Epistle of Barnabus is not?

14. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

[My hearts in London - Everett]

Would you please remove me from your ping list? Thanks.

[Anti-Utopian]

That is not the answer to the question I asked, and you know it.

I find you utterly repulsive.

[conservativegramma]

Not one single heretic "gets a pass".

I would agree with you on that one. God is the final judge and arbiter and He feels pretty strongly about false religious systems. But you apparently missed my attempts at sarcasm. I wasn't referring to what literally happens to all heretics. I was referring to the ignored sin within the Catholic Church and its own contradictory dogmas.

....“Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:....

Has absolutely NO authority to judge salvation or eternal destination. This is the guy who is the sole source on that one:

John 14:6 - I [Christ] am the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE, and no man comes to the Father, BUT BY ME [Christ].

Acts 4:12 - And there is salvation IN NO ONE ELSE [Christ],for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

John 10:9 - I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Romans 10:13 - for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Matthew 18:19-20 - Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Christ Himself is the final judge - NOT Popes, unbiblical councils or decrees. Matthew 18:19-20 points towards the TRUE Church. Its people gathered together who believe on HIS NAME, and Christ promises HE IS THERE in their midst. The TRUE CHURCH has always been individual believers gathered together in the Name of Christ however few or large in number.

[Grunthor]

Stop pinging me to your posts, there are rules in the religion forum that I cannot follow when coversing with someone like you.

Good day.

[bkaycee]

Yep, RC's can say some fairly ridiculous things without understanding Gods Word.

The RC hierarchy will suffer serious judgement from God for their twisting and denigration of scripture, equating their traditions to be on par with God's Word and their historical forbiding of the laity to read the bible altogeter.

The magesterium informs the people they are not smart enough to understand the plain meaning of the scriptures without an "interpreter". Unfortunately, this "interpreter" can make the scriptures say almost anything, especially to those who are scripturally illiterate.

It's easier to keep them in the fold when the sheep remain dumb.

I suppose constantly having to field questions about why the doctrines of the Roman church are not found in or antithetical to the scriptures could be extremely time consuming.

[mdmathis6]

Oh you’d know the ones that are really praying to the Father in Jesus name as opposed to those who are just “talking to themselves”. The fruit and the power of the Resurrection will be evident in their lives!

Are you prepared to say that the Prophet Daniel, praying several times a day in defiance of royal ordinance was talking to himself?

What about Jesus talking to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane?

When Elijah prayed to God, was there a priest there to intercede? Or was he talking to himself?

The mother of of the prophet Samuel prayed earnestly to have a child, the priest saw her praying and after hearing her story, confirmed that God had heard her very direct prayer! Was she talking to herself or to God?

Leoni, you are on short precipice with this “line of Latin catholic intellectual reasoning”...beware you don’t step off!

[Cronos]

I'd suggest you read CCC #841. It says

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day

All those who acknowledge God among Muslims are in the plan of salvation --> no indication that Allah = God and definitely the phrase is not meant to say that Islam is a method of salvation parallel to Christianity. Muslims are NOT saved by adhering to Islamm. Early in the CCC (a few paragraphs ahead), we read "All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God. . . . And in different ways to it belong, or are related: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation." All mankind is called to the "Catholic unity of the people of God".

two paragraphs before we have "This sacred council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. . . . Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." The paragraph goes on to say that those baptised and honored with the name of Christian are linked to the Church.

Finally, it talks about non-Christians. NOTE -- this first talked about non-Catholics and how close they are to us. The closest being Orthodox, and then Protestants, then Jews. Finally Mu's (and we are "closer" to them theologically than to Buddhists or Hindus)

"these profess to hold the faith of Abraham" --> no statement about whether they actually DO, just that they claim to do this, they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.

"Together with us they adore the one, merciful God." --> now this is difficult, however, it does not claim that Al = God. They worship what they think is God. The more "Muslim" they become, the less they worship God and the more they worship Alla who isSatan.

There should be no doubt that the Church recognizes that followers of Islam have elements of truth. But while it is possible for them—as for all men—to be saved if they live up to the light God has given them, it cannot be said that Islam is a path of salvation or that Muslims do not need to become Christians.

FInally the CCC says "If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation"

[bkaycee]

I guess the only thing they do agree on is that they are not in The Church

We are of the Catholic(universal) Church, just not in the RCC organization.

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

It would seem that the Church Augustine was commenting on above is clearly not the RCC of today where there are NO non-essentials and ALL things must be lock step agreement on penalty of damnation.

[mdmathis6]

“Why would anyone except a Pythagorean pray to angles?”

‘Cause they were looking for a “square deal””?!

They were looking for a cure for being “obtuse”?

(just trying to inject a little humor...on second thought I’ll go back to the humor cave now)

[Leoni]

Grunthor asked: Ok, all Catholics agree on Catholic doctrine, right?

Another strawman. I didn't say all Catholics agree on doctrine. Anyone baptized at infancy can call themselves a Catholic. Mouth foaming Anti-clerical, Masonic, Communists can call themselves Catholic, that's irrelevant. The Catholic Church has reveled truths which a Catholic can't deny or else they are heretics.

Stop beating around the bush, just stick to those 7 doctrines I gave you. Answer the question. Do Protestants have any revealed truths concerning at least those seven crucial to life subjects?

----------------------------------------------------

Leoni asked : Tell me one doctrine that you YOPIOS agree on? You don’t even agree if Christ is God equal 100% to the Father. Contraceptives? Divorce? Baptism? Ones saved always saved no matter what? Female priestesses? Sacraments?

Grunthor responded: Are you going to lie here as well and tell us that all Catholics agree on everything?

Leoni answers: Strawman! I didn't say "everything". Please answer my question above.

Heresy- the formal denial or doubt by a baptized person of any revealed truth of the Catholic Faith.

A Catholic denies ONE reveled truth and he is a heretic and outside of the Church and condemned to eternal perdition for all eternity, if he dies unrepentant.

[Cronos]

:) tangentially speaking, the cos of this is congruent :-P

[OneWingedShark]

[Cronos]

Cronos: Q: Why would anyone except a Pythagorean pray to angles?

OQS: A: Because they were deceived by a false doctrine.

you mean these were not the right angles? There was no congruence?

[conservativegramma]

Thanks Bob!

[OneWingedShark]

>Your language used for a theological discussion is reprehensible. Please use restraint.

Sorry, the Army-culture I was in for the last decade is coming through; I’ll try to rectify the problem.

[My hearts in London - Everett]

AGAIN, please remove me from your ping list. I did not request to be added to it! Thank you.

[Cronos]

I DID answer the question --> 1. Where is the Trinity "indicated" in the Bible? it is NOT explicitly stated but is indicated throughout the Bible. Similarly for the Assumption

2. Your question "where is it in the Bible" hits the topic of this thread --> SOLA scriptura. I don't believe in SOLA or else we need to reject everything not IN the bible, from TV to running water. Your question is wrong in the light of this thread as it is the debating point

[xone]

They agree in no transubstantian/consubstantian No, wait, Lutherans and Anglicans

I don't know about the Anglicans, but you have been corrected before re: Lutherans about this. No, wait, indeed.