Posted on 05/31/2010 6:33:12 AM PDT by Cronos
1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?
2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?
4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned
5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"
6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”(Martin Luther)
That is absurd. It insults my intelligence. I've been to a lot of churches and heard lots of preachers, but nowhere and nohow have I heard of a plot to do this. Catholics, on a whole, are indoctrinated so thoroughly and the whole ritualized proceedings (yeah I've even been to Catholic church) that makes them feel so secure and a part of something that they want to belong to so much that they accept whatever teaching is given them freely. A Protestant, on the other hand, questions everything their minister teaches to ensure it squares with the Gospel. My soul is so precious, I don't entrust it to any church, minister or man. I am responsible for my soul.
You say that like it's a bad thing. My soul is mine. It is precious. God gave me a brain to use. I am one of His flock. I hear His voice (through the Scriptures mostly).
Let me use your own scripture-quote against you:
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
If, as you insinuate, protestantism is purely against the established church then why should you so vigorously defend it with extra-biblical quotes & references? Isn’t it capable of standing against the very gates of hell?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about but I remember a picture of some man (presumable John or Paul) but the image was kinda spooky. Can’t remember what was on the back of it but I remember him saying he kept it wherever he went.
Well Dear Brother. I was not there. I did not what you mean than. You are very sincere though.
Number one I think you should have your own website. That comment with the statue pictures was hilarious with the hood ornament. And the way you placed that together. I was laughing for a while. You have a Great skill. A great satirist. Even though I do not agree. Now that said. Honest Question according to the bible what does -—1JOHN 1: 5”This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[ sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.” ————Does not “If”in verse 9 mean the opposite if we do not confess are sins he is not faithful to forgive. Otherwise why is John mentioning it. I personally look at that like a state of grace. Meaning its a Gift of mercy but like any gift it has to be maintained. Like If someone gives me an object gift if I want to keep it. What is your view? Serious.
No Catholic can be so presumptuous as to say that they are saved
I submit to you that following the Catholic Church in this teaching (that you can never be sure you are saved) places you in spiritual bondage. Because the motivation for your good works is self-serving not selfless. What do I mean by that? Your works are being done because you're not sure you are saved and you are using them to convince yourself that you are following God good enough; that somehow if you keep doing these works you will have obeyed God. This approach will never give you what Christ so desperately wants to give you ... the "peace that passes all understanding."
If you would search the Scriptures you would find that the proper motivation for good works is in gratitude for what Christ has already provided for you; and yes, you can have assurance of your eternal salvation.
Titus 3.5 - He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
The verb is aorist active indicative, the action was performed by Him in the past.
Other passages include: Ephesians 2:8-9, I John 5:11-13 ... "These things I have written unto you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life"
Please reconsider your positions.
If you study the scriptures, using solid Biblical approaches to hermeneutics, the vast majority of Biblical books and passages can be understood by a person of average intelligence. If you can read, you can understand. Your purpose is to understand what the author meant by the words he penned. Paul wrote this letter to a particular church in history for a particular purpose. A careful reading of the text is all that is needed to discover this purpose and place the entire letter in its proper context. How would the church at Ephesus have read Pauls letter? One verse here, another there, flip over to Thessalonians then back to Hebrews? No, they would read it from beginning to end.
Now I will be the first to admit that in a small group Bible study I have heard the question "what does this verse mean to you" and that drives me up the wall. The question must always be "what did the author intend." There is one correct meaning for each passage (the authors meaning) and that meaning fits within the larger context of passages, chapters, and entire books ... as well as the larger context of the entire Bible. This is the meaning we are looking for.
For example, take every interpretation in existence for a particular passage, say John 3.16. There are probably 10 different interpretations in existence. Which is correct? Since we are interested in the authors meaning, there is only 1 or none of them in this instance. How do we determine which is correct? By looking at the text itself, the context of the book, the type of literary genre, and if possible, the original languages. Assuming that your church has the proper interpretation because its your church is like trying to study the Bible with only one translation. Augustine commented that its dangerous to use only one translation because the sense of the passage could be misunderstood and you will be locked into a particular meaning that could be incorrect.
You are minimizing the practice and misrepresenting Paul’s words. When the Corinthians tended to unduly exalt men, Paul wrote that each has a part, so that they “might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written. “ (1Cor. 4:6)
The issue of statues is more debatable than some suppose it is, but praying to the departed is not (see post 212), while the “veneration” given to Mary is far above that which is written, and includes attribution of powers and privileges being ascribed to her that are not Scriptural.
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ (St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv. 4) ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
‘O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.’” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #9.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
.When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....Mary is this glorious intermediary...” Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: ‘Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.’”Pope Leo XIII, in Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 8, 1894, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm
All gifts which the Author of all good (God) has deigned to communicate to the unhappy posterity of Adam, are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin.” Pope Benedict XV (AAS 9, 1917, 266) (quoted in “About Our Lady, our Blessed Mother”, by Our Lady’s Warriors).
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/abtmary.htm
“The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX, in Ubi Primum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1849, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ubipr2.htm
“In conclusion: we may say that, in virtue of the divine salvific counsels ordaining a most perfect redemption, our Lady as Coredemptrix is included with Christ, the One Mediator.” Rev. Fr. Peter Damian M. Fehlner, F.F.I., professor of Catholic Theology, in Immaculata Mediatrix — Toward a Dogmatic Definition of the Coredemption.
http://www.voxpopuli.org/book_2_10.php
“Pope Pius XII explains in an address on the Queenship of Mary, ‘when the glorious Virgin Mary entered triumphantly into heaven and was elevated above the choirs of angels to the throne of the Most Holy Trinity.’ And then Christ ‘placed a triple crown of glory on her head, presented her to the heavenly court, seated her at his right hand and pronounced her Queen of the Universe.’...Opus Sanctorum Angelorum, Formation Letter, “Mary - ‘Regina Angelorum’”, April, 2000.
http://www.opusangelorum.org/Formation/Maryregina.html
Advocate of grace,
Champion of God’s people,
Cause of our joy,
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
God’s masterpiece.
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Gentile Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Model of virtue,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Minister of holiness,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Pride of the human race,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe
Seat of wisdom,
Sinless Mother,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Splendor of the Church,
From the “Litany of Loreto”
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
The following quotes are from the book “Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, whose book was given the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the Roman Catholic Church that the book “is free of doctrinal or moral error.”
(a) She [Mary] is co-Redemptrix of the human race.
(b) The church and the saints greet her thus: “You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us.”
(c) God has ordained that no grace will be granted to us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all the saints that no grace will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary’s hands. No one will be saved nor obtain mercy except through You, O’ heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O’ Mary, our salvation is in your hands.
(d) During His passion, Mary suffered in her heart all the pains that Jesus suffered in His body. For this reason, God exalted her so greatly.
(e) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she gave us Jesus pledge of our salvation. Furthermore, she is co-Redemptrix of the human race, because with Christ she ransomed mankind from the power of Satan.
(f) Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.
(g) We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.
(h) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she suffered in her heart whatever was lacking in the passion of Christ. Are we obligated to Jesus for His passions? — so we are indebted to Mary for her participation in His passions. She gave birth to Jesus with joy; she gave birth to us, brothers of Jesus, in anguish and sorrow.
(i) Mary, Queen of the Apostles: She is queen of apostles because she formed them and directed them in their preaching. Mary is Queen of Apostles because by herself she routed all the heresies. Mary is Queen of Apostles because she is mother of grace and channel of mercy. She is Queen of Apostles because in her every hope is life and virtue. She is Queen of Apostles because she is conqueror of the Infernal Dragon. (Emphasis added.)
(j) If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven — “Who explains me will have life everlasting.”
(k) God shared His power with her [Mary]. “My mother, ask, for I must not turn away your face.” Christ speaking to Mary: “Without your command, no one shall move hand or foot in the whole land.”
(l) All grace is passed from God to Jesus, from Jesus to Mary, and from Mary to us. The grace of God, cure for our ills, comes to us through Mary like water through an aqueduct.
(m) Mary is the compliment of the Holy Spirit. Before God she asks not — she commands!
(n) No true devotee of Mary will be damned because she is the terrible conqueror of the devil.
(o) Because she believed in Christ’s mission of salvation, she became the co-Redemptrix of the whole human race.
(p) Mary is holier than the saints, loftier than the heavens, more glorious than the cherubim, more venerable than any other creature.
(q) No one can acquire an intimate union with Jesus and a perfect
fidelity to the Holy Spirit without being greatly united with Mary.
(r) It is necessary for us to have a mediator besides Jesus as mediator, and we will never find one more qualified than Mary. (Emphasis added.)
(s) It was never written of anyone that he became a saint without having a special devotion to Mary.
(u) Mary is the ark of salvation built by God on the deluge of our faults so that whoever desires may enter and be saved.
(w) It is important to be devoted to Mary as it is to enter heaven,
because no one can enter Paradise who is not devoted to Mary.
(x) In reward for humility, God gave to Mary the power of filling with blessed souls the thrones left empty by the rebellious angels.
(y) Mary is secretary of the King of Heaven. It is she who writes in the Book of Life the names of the predestined, and signs them with the emblem of God. She herself is the Book of Life from which God will read the names of the elect on the day of judgment.
It is indeed grievous extrapolate a Heaven demi-godess out of Scripture, while the Bible rightly honors her but not as an object of prayer, etc. To Christ the Holy Spirit directs us, as the one uniquely qualified to be our intercessor, being the only One who “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Heb 4:16). And as all power in Heaven and on earth is given to Him, He is not only all perfect but all powerful, and is not shown delegating others in Heaven to handle prayer requests, and earthly analogies fail. We thus have no need of praying other Heavenly intercessors. The Bible offers NONE, and to pray to another is an insult to Christ.
(Heb 7:25) “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
And Scripture interpreted by Rome is just her opinion, including her interpretation that according to her interpretation only her interpretation is correct. Her interpretation of her basis for ecclesiastical authenticity is itself specious.
In addition to the above post, if unity is the goal then the Watchtower Society have most everyone beat, and the alternative to the apostolic method of reasoning out of the Scriptures, with accompanying power, that truth-loving hearts will be persuaded, is that of implicit trust in an authority that claims it is infallible, when it fulfills its infallibly-defined formula or similar.
I have been born again for over 30 years, thanks be to God, and actively remained in Catholicism for 6 years after i was, and i can attest that the “unity of the Spirit”, due to evangelicals shared faith in the gospel of the grace of God, rather than that of institutionalized religion, and it accompanying core beliefs, is far greater in scope and degree - despite it’s faults - than what Rome fosters.
Materially sufficient. See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2524569/posts?page=203#203
As to who is qualified, it is not those who infallibly declare that they are infallible, and effectively presume authority over the Bible, but those whose manner is to reason with souls out of the scriptures, (Acts 17:2) by manifestation of the truth commending themselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God, (2Cor. 4:2) so that those who searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so, (Acts 17:11) found them to be true, rightly dividing the word of truth, (2Tim. 15) often with further Scriptural attestation accompanying.
While this method can also result in divisions, unity itself is not the goal, and the unity based upon the Berean heart and method is of higher quality than unity based upon implicit faith in an self-proclaimed entity (outside God, who alone evidences He is worthy of it). And evangelicals, even in their present state, actually evidence more unity and commitment than Catholics overall, whose unity is largely that of paper and membership in the church they disagree with. See also the last paragraph of the post 203.
Ephesians 2:8&9: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3:5 - He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 4:4-5 - 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [Faith ALONE in this passage].
Galatians 2:16 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." [Now this verse is key to those who try to earn their salvation. How good do you have to be???? How much do you have to do????? This verse maintains 100% - ALL THINGS.]
Look at James 2:10 - "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." - 100% again. Just ONE failure condemns you of ALL - that's 100%.
Look at Galatians 5:3 - "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." - Once again keeping the WHOLE law: 100%.
If you're going to please God with sacraments and decrees okay but God requires 100% and nothing less. From the time you were 2 years old and crawled up on the kitchen counter and snitched a cookie out of your mother' cookie jar after she told you not to - you're condemned. I use this illustration to demonstrate that no man can be 100% perfect - its impossible - so if salvation comes by works we're all damned. And if salvation is contingent on our 'maintaining' grace, we can't do that even, so we're still damned.
So the answer to the question 'How good do you have to be?' is perfection, which is humanly impossible. This is why we need a Savior, if we COULD achieve 100% we wouldn't need one would we?
So grace is comletely unearned, it is a gift, you are correct at that point. That is God's mercy extended to us. But I don't agree it must be maintained in the sense of losing or attaining justification. The above verses refute that notion. Justification comes by faith apart from works.
Now with that said, a TRUE saving faith will ALWAYS be accompanied by works, they are the FRUIT by which others can know we belong to Christ. (Eph. 2:10; Gal. 5:22-25; Matthew 7:20)
This is illustrated perfectly in James 2:17-18 - 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
The above passage ISN'T saying works saves, what its saying is that true salvation or true faith will ALWAYS have works or its a dead faith. A dead faith isn't genuine faith at all! Some try and prove this passage is a proof text that we are justified by works. That interpretation contradicts all the passages posted above so cannot be correct. God will not contradict Himself. The only correct interpretation remaining is precisely what James is saying: faith without works is a dead faith, i.e., never really there. In this passage works justifies because works prove the existence of an already present saving faith. This is the interpretation that completely harmonizes with all of Scripture, and therefore can be the only correct one.
So where we would disagree is that you believe the gift of grace must continue to be maintained or it is lost, or somehow must continue to be earned in some fashion. That contradicts the sum total of Scripture. Plus it implies that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was somehow insufficient and WE must add to it! What arrogance that is!! What a slap in His face! Wow. So, I would contend that once truly saved the maintenance will automatically follow or it wasn't ever there to begin with, and Christ's work on the cross was completely sufficient for all of life and godliness.
Again if works aren't there, salvation was never really there, not that works are required to earn or keep any salvation God extends. Look at 1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." See? Not keeping the law, not having works, or even leaving the faith doesn't mean you LOST salvation, it means you never really had it. Jesus affirms that those who are really His He keeps in John 10:29 - "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
#2 - I agree with your 1 John 1:9 assessment - IF we confess our sins, etc. Confession naturally follows with repentance in my view. They roll together. When one's repentance is genuine he/she is going to naturally want to'confess' to God their sins, and thus He will forgive. Where repentance is absent, there isn't going to be a 'desire' to confess anything, and thus God won't forgive not because He can't or doesn't want to, but because you haven't really wanted it because you haven't first repented. (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; Acts 8:22; 2 Cor. 7:10; 2 Tim. 2:25; 2 Peter 3:9)
#3 - I like the gift illustration I use it all the time. But if someone tries to give you an object gift 'if you want to keep it' = if you decide NOT to keep it, you never really took it. You either accept it or you reject it, not that you accepted it then lost it. God gives you the strength and ability to do His will, as stated in verse John 10:29 above, the Holy Spirit imparted by Christ will not allow you to 'lose it' so it comes down to either you accepted it or you didn't. And your life or fruit will demonstrate which choice you made.
Correction: “see post 212” should have been 203.
Well, maybe I am mistaken and my friend was really some kind of Orthodox. I’m not totally sure. Was a long time ago.
You might want to see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2524495/posts?page=37#37 and #47 and 49 Thanks be to God.
I never read that book but usually it Means Christ came thru her Meaning his humanity. So when they say thru Mary its in honor of her. I do believe Christ Has to honor her because of the commandment honor your Mother and father. When it reads co redeemer or any title it just means she and all who are believers are co-helpers too. I do say a certain amount of people go overboard. She can only intercede. She and any believer are in him with in the unity of the Holy Spirit. It does not mean you can’t pray to Jesus. Jesus is in the rosary. The rosary is only a devotional its never in the Mass. Meaning private individual or in a private group.
Amen Daniel, thank you. Appreciate the posts!
I am glad you can admit that “certain amount of people go overboard”, though the stamp on such works and lack of discipline of the authors does not help your effort to minimize it. But prayer to departed saints is without Biblical warrant, and is contrary to whho the Bible says we should pray to, and the immediacy and sufficiency of Christ. This is briefly dealt with in post 203.
When you become born again you “have access by one Spirit unto the Father.” (Eph 2:18)
Good night.
Likewise yours, praise God. Good night.
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