Posted on 05/30/2010 6:49:24 PM PDT by delacoert
Anniversary ping.
Over & over again, for 180 years.
Daily accusations that we're "apostates."
Daily accusations that ALL our professing believers are "corrupt" -- and that we're heart drifters.
Daily accusations that ALL our creeds are an "abomination" to God.
When will the Mormon church relent over this unprecedented slander?
52,000 missionaries accusing us of "apostasy."
E-accusations of this at lds.org
Curricula slander
Magazine slander
Book slander, published by Deseret, Inc., owned by the church
Baptist ping
It’s always interesting to examine beliefs that are NOT Christian, such as Mormonism. Mormonism MUST rely on ecternal sources that contradict the Bible. It is the Bible that is truth.
I ignore Mormon attacks.
It is an unBiblical religion.
You wrote:
“It is the Bible that is truth.”
Yes, it is true, but all Christians believe in things not explicitly stated in scripture. Protestants, for instance, believe in sola scriptura which is not found anywhere in Scripture. Another peculiarly Protestant belief - sola fide - is specifically disavowed in scripture yet Protestants believe it nonetheless.
The basic premise of Mormonism is that the Church Christ founded somehow needed a restoration. Unfortunately, this cannot be true, unless Christ is a liar. The LDS claims that God chose Joseph Smith to reestablish the Church of Jesus Christ after it had disappeared some 1,700 years earlier following the death of the first apostles.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20
Again, here Jesus assures us that He is always with us, to the very end.
So Christ says His Church will not be destroyed or fall away from him, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to always teach the Truth, and He will always be with us. Yet Mormons believe the Church almost immediately went apostasy.
The only reason for a ‘restoration’ is that Christ lied.
YOUR MOTHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN?
MRS. GOD
MORMONISM: teaches that God the father has many wives in heaven, thereby resulting in not only a father in heaven , but a mother-in-heaven. All Mormons on earth today believe they were originally the result of such sexual, heavenly union. (See Orson Pratt. The Seer, p37; also Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 516)
CHRISTIANITY: The Bible has absolutely no mention of any such “wives” of God the Father.
Thank you. And if Dracula... err... Mitt rears his ugly head again...
And judging from the lack of Lds responses on this, even in 2007-2009 when Lds FReepers were more active "countering" posts...+ from what I saw on a Mormon discussion Web site...Lds have real problems among themselves with dealing with Matt. 16:18.
General authority quote after general authority quote assures the Lds grassroots that in the 21st century & beyond, God would ne'er dare lead the church astray and that they are on a fine course via their "prophet."
While they say that with 100% assurance, they somehow also conclude -- at least their leaders have with 100% assurance -- that Christ could somehow ne'er fair well in keeping the church from going astray.
* So their current "Captain Prophet" @ the helm, whoever that is at the time, is supposedly 100% dead-on and set for life...
* "Captain Moroni" Click here for Deseret Book 'Captain Moroni Action Figure' -- a real, well a real-fake name/character Smith made up for the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon -- (not to be confused with the ghost-angel Moroni character in the Book of Mormon)...anyway, Captain Moroni could "compel" 4,000 to meet their maker in raising a "Title of Liberty" flag [yeah, I'm "sure" they had that swashbuckling, flag-hoisting 'Captains' back then...Tennessee Nana & Elsie, stop laughing...of course, the Hebrew South or Central Americans -- give or take several thousand miles -- had action figure prototypes titled "Captain" about 100 years before Christ's public ministry!!! You 'history' scoffers, you!]
* But "Captain Christ"??? No...Mormons concluded He couldn't even keep the ship afloat...and that 100% of the crew "mutinied" on Him. And the ship named "Christian" went down to Davy's locker, per 14 yo pimply-faced teen Joey Smith.
And Mormons, who conclude from the book of Moroni in the Book of Mormon, that 7 year-old, 364-day children can't sin, seem to conclude that...
...hey, if 7 yo can't go wrong...
...then we'll place our entire physical and spiritual eternal lives in the hands of what a 14 yo saw!!!
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us
to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and
preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering
of God waited in the days of Noah ...” (1 peter 3:18-20)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged
according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)
It’s amazing that Jesus preached also to the spirits of the disobedient. Appearantly we can repent
and accept Jesus even after death. All is not lost for those who lived without Jesus in their lives.
But there is a problem; how can they be baptized? For Jesus said that
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mark 16:16)
and
“... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
The solution to this problem is vicarious baptisms, where the living are baptized for the dead.
This was a common practice amoung the early saints. St. Paul tells us about it in the Bible.
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are
they then baptized for the dead? (1 Cor. 15:29)
We know this was a common practice because Paul didn’t have to justify it, but rather, he justified
the rising of the dead by the vicarious baptisms. Clearly, St. Paul and the Corinthians considered
the practice of baptisms for the dead to be a normal part of the Gospel, otherwise there would have
been no justification in St. Paul’s argument.
Where do we see this practice today? Which Christian church loves the dead enough to be baptized
for them? As far as I know, all of Christianity simply ignore the dead. All except The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons).
Did you catch the "THEY", Webboy? THEY (not WE)
Which Christian church loves the dead enough to be baptized for them?
You mean which church is obsessed with the dead?
On February 16, 1849, Brigham Young stated to the Twelve,
"In fact we are told that by taking the gospel to others and bringing them to repentance, by doing genealogy and temple work, and by living Christ-like lives, we can come to stand as saviors on Mount Zion.
(Is that your goal, too, Webboy? To be a "savior" 'cause you believe Christ didn't do enough savin' for you?)
Webboy, did you know that Joseph Smith said: "ALL those who have not had an opportunity of hearing the Gospel, and being administered unto by an inspired man in the flesh, MUST have it hereafter, BEFORE they can be finally judged. (Lds Presidents book on Smith, p. 471)
Smith said "ALL." Is the Lds church committed to that? All?
That means ALL pre-Gutenberg people.
That means ALL "dark ages" people.
That means ALL B.C. people.
That means ALL primitive and ancient tribal campfire clans.
ALL. Everybody. Mandated by Smith for EVERY spirit!
Doncha think Lds should be doing NOTHING ELSE since your founding prophet said "ALL?"
Tell us, Webboy,, how the Mormon church plans to uncover non-existent records of most of these peoples & people groups?
Seances?
Ouija boards?
Magic 8 balls?
Pet rocks like Smith had?
Extensive searches worldwide for more hidden gold plates?
Mass manufacturing of urims & thummims?
Please tell us how, Saundra?
And what kind of "false hope" is the Mormon church peddling in -- this false “hope" you offer -- when 98-99% of the coveted records of which they seek have been lost, destroyed or never existed?
Lds genealogists might as well give up the ghost now. What Smith said will never happen. That quote alone shows he's a false prophet. It's a wasted life. Wasted efforts. Focus on those living, not on the dead. Jesus asked someone in Luke 9 why they sought the living among the dead? And Paul the apostle warned you NOT to "devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. (1 Tim. 1:4)
Indeed, that's all Lds have been prompting -- with the Jews for example, controversy promotion vs. God's work. Indeed, this chasing of the wind for "endless genealogies" is what the apostle Paul told Titus to avoid: avoid foolish controversies and genealogies... (Titus 3:9)
Mormons, if you won't adhere to 1 Tim. 1:4 & Titus 3:9, then just get your scissors out, and Thomas Jefferson-like, cut them out.
“Appearantly we can repent and accept Jesus even after
death. All is not lost for those who lived without Jesus
in their lives.”
Not so fast...
“And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;” Hebrews 9:27
The same Apostle Paul who referred to baptism of the dead
said there were no second chances.
There aren’t any second chances, despite the heresy of
mormonism and other false groups - as the Apostle Paul
referred to.
He did not endorse or justify baptism of the dead. He
referred to it’s practice. He didn’t say it was common
or even normal.
If it were important at all, God would have commanded
it. He did not.
“Where do we see this practice today?”
Cultic groups that are false religions.
“Which Christian church loves the dead enough
to be baptized for them? As far as I know, all
of Christianity simply ignore the dead. All
except The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints (Mormons).”
Since mormonism isn’t Christian, the answer to your
question is NO Christian Church baptizes for the
dead. Christians understand Hebrews 9:27.
It’s about who the LDS says about Jesus ... and Paul was questioning why do it if there’s no resurrection ... but since there’s only resurrection in Christ then the baptism for the dead is not needed ....
Exactly. The book of Mormon makes no mention of baptizing dead people; and D&C constantly references the BoM as "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." (So was the BoM "full" or not, gospel-wise?)
The Book of Mormon also says there's no second chances beyond death.
We know this was a common practice because Paul didn’t have to justify it, but rather, he justified
the rising of the dead by the vicarious baptisms. Clearly, St. Paul and the Corinthians considered
the practice of baptisms for the dead to be a normal part of the Gospel, otherwise there would have
been no justification in St. Paul’s argument.
— - - -
I hate to burst your bubble (nah I don’t) but just because Paul mentions it in passing (in a discussion about RESURRECTION) does not mean it was ‘part of the Gospel’. There are NO other references to it in Christian documentation or history except by Gnostic group. Now baptism for the dead was a PAGAN practice.
If is was so important, it would have been mentioned, either by friendly or hostile sources, there there is no other mention of it in the Bible or in pagan sources about Christian rites. Ditto for ‘endowments’ and other LDS temple rites.
Furthermore, Paul uses THEY not WE which is the form of address he uses when speaking about Christians, therefore grammatically, Paul is speaking about those OUTSIDE the Church, non Christians.
And, yes, Pagans did baptize as well (Mithraic initiatory ordinances had full immersion in some areas) that doesn’t make it part of the Gospel of Christ.
Baptism for the dead is a perfect example of how the LDS practice eisegesis (reading INTO the text). They take one passing phrase, out of context, and turn it into an elaborate doctrine that is flat out contrary to Biblical doctrine (no second chances).
Mormonism is a chameleon religion, very syncretistic, and completely willing to adapt itself as it must to make itself more attractive to the ignorant.
If Mormons would limit their claims to the admission that they aren't Christian, I'd treat 'em like I do Muslims and Hindus: Just a different religion other than my own (Orthodox Christianity).
But nooooooo...they have to put forth the claim that they're Christian...and it is THIS which opens up the whole can o' worms and starts the argument.
A Christian, you see, cannot tolerate an assault Truth itself. We are compelled to respond.
Understand, however, we're not attacking indivuals. We're responding to the false claim being put forth. Some response MUST be made, if only to protect the young and ignorant.
Again, very good post. Thanks for comparing the differences. You can expect that they'll either make ad hominem attacks, or attempt to muddle the differences enough so that they don't appear to be significant. It's the standard tactic.
.
Sauron
DUH!
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Wait!!!
What about the MORMON baptism??
It seems like the MORMONs have a HARD time figgering out just WHO was speaking to JS!!
As a young boy in 1820, Joseph Smith wanted to know which church was true. As he searched the Bible for help, he read that he should ask of God. Acting on this counsel, Joseph went into the woods near his home and prayed. Suddenly, a light shone above him and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him. When Joseph asked which church he should join, the Savior told him to join none of the churches then in existence because they were teaching incorrect doctrines. Through this experience and many others that followed, the Lord chose Joseph to be His prophet and to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church to the earth.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
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