Posted on 05/24/2010 7:40:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
I’m holding in my hand my black hardcover copy of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, one of Mormonism’s most influential books, an all-time Mormon bestseller, which went out of print this week.
A book written, I’m sure, with the best of intentions by a revered Mormon leader. And, still, a book that continued to circulate even after other high-ranking Mormon leaders recommended more than one thousand corrections to its content.
A book that called Roman Catholicism the “Church of the Devil.” And a book that elevated to doctrinal status non-doctrinal folklore about the origins of the LDS Church’s ban on conveying priesthood authority to members of African descent, claiming that blacks were the descendents of the accursed Cain.
A book that due to its authoritative presentation and doctrinal fundamentalism gave many Mormons reasons for grief.
Mormon Doctrine (1958 – 2010), RIP.
And you would have been better for it!!
But NOW you have had the TRUTH shown to you.
YOU get to decide now.
Like emulating your positive replies?
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
And St. Paul chimes in...
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
And yet, when called to do so; YOU cannot seem to point to a SINGLE thing!
You DO want LIES exposed? RIGHT?
SHOW them!!!
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
HERE!
“If you don’t have everlasting/eternal life before you die, you don’t have it, Jesus says. The wrath of God remains on you. “
There you go again . . . condemning people to damnation and hell and blaming it on the Savior who gave His life to save us from our sins.
The “wrath of God” is a rather severe punishment, Colofornian, and should reserved for His judgment - NOT YOURS!
Perfect! I too belong to one of the churches that Joseph Smith said was apostate. [Greyfoxx39]
Hmm…I seem to recall a certain Book of Mormon passage:
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Nephi 14:9-10, Book of Mormon)
Tis a very fitting passage to cite on this thread, given McConkie’s original 1958 Mormon Doctrine took his labeling of the Catholic church as a “whore” from Mormon “scriptures” like this!
If Mormons interpret the Mormon church to be ”the church of the Lamb of God” and everybody else belongs to “the church of the devil” then why would we need to identify our precise church homes when Mormons already claimed to have done so on our behalf? (They claim they already know where we “worship”…and somehow, we are branded as somehow “intolerant”???)
But if we believe the book of Revelation…then that tells a different story. How?
(1) Mormons believe they’ll be married forever. Their primary devotion will be to their future spouse, who they believe will be a god. So, their devotion will be to a new god. The Bible has a name for that…it’s called “idolatry.” (And don’t give me, “But they’ll split that devotion between one god and another god"…the Bible doesn’t go for that, either…see 2 Kings 17)
(2) Christians. on the other hand, believe our “marriage” in heaven will be to the “Lamb of God” – a “marriage” if you will of service, intimate communication, commitment, devotion, love, compassion, trust, faithfulness, loyalty, mutual edification, identification as “one,” etc. – not simply what our culture has reduced it to – as mere physical sex. 2 Corinthians 11 mentions this. So does Ephesians 4. So do Christ’s parables. So does the last several chapters of Revelation.
"Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' "And he added, "These are the true words of God."(Rev. 19:9)
"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:9)
Per, the Bible...the entire church therefore is a form of "she" -- if the bride is the church, and the church is the wife of the lamb. Now do we take that literally? Are men going to have "surgeries" entering into heaven? How silly.
In heaven, we will move beyond the earthly idolatry of physical sex, which the Lord created as a gift to us, in which we have badly exploited and abused. The church being the “bride of the Lamb” is anything but about mere physical sex and earthly gender identities.
We need to go back to the original question of why Eve was created. She was created to be a “helpmate.” She was “born” of Adam’s rib. The true Church of the Lamb (not the Mormon church) is one “born” of Jesus’ side – of blood and water – His side where His ribcage was, when the spear pierced it…
…one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced." (John 19:34-37)
Therefore, we, too, as the universal Church of Christ…will be His eternal “helpmate”:
”The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.” (Rev. 22:3)
Besides all this, I already answered what church we belong to on the first McConkie Mormon Doctrine thread. Here’s what I said:
Now Protestants didn't escape McConkie's scathing pen, either. Here's a brief excerpt from his 1979 version:
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. (p. 610)
Yes, "Brother" Bruce...the cross is indeed a "dead tree."
We Protestants are humble members of the Church of the Dead Tree. And like the apostle Paul, we glory in it! This dead tree -- the cross -- is paradoxically our source of life!
I was on a ski trip once, riding the upper deck of a SceniCruiser bus, when we got the upper windshield blasted by some kind of duck.
We have folks that have worshipped with us for years, but are not members.
WESLEYAN Church
NIV Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
NIV Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
NIV Revelation 13:8-9
8. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9. He who has an ear, let him hear.
NIV Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Revelation 201. And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8. and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Is YOUR name written there?
NIV Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I agree completely. That is why I am a Latter-day Saint. (Or, as I like to say, a Mormon Christian.)
36He that believeth on the Son HATH [has] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
Again, I agree completely. That is what I believe. And that is why I am a Latter-day Saint (i.e., a Mormon Christian).
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [has] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Once again, that is what I believe as a Latter-day Saint (a.k.a. Mormon Christian).
You may say, "Wait a minute. My Mormon leaders have told us 'eternal life' = eternal progression and celestial heaven and becoming heirs. But you're telling me eternal life is now? How can that be?"
This look like a straw man argument to me. Or perhaps a false dichotomy.
That's because eternal life is a relationship with the true God (not just any packaged version of God); and with the true Christ (not just any packaged version of Christ):
Yet again, as a Latter-day Saint (Mormon Christian), I agree with you.
To "know" in Biblical terms is a living relationship, which doesn't suddenly begin when we die. But can happen now. If you've been told, Mormon or non-Mormon, religious or non-religious, that eternal life doesn't occur until you die, you've only been told a partial story at best...and for those of you who've been told "eternal life" = only godhood, you've been outright lied to.
Yes, to know God is to have relationship with Him. I have such a relationship. Mormonism is a way of life, one centered around a covenant relationship with God.
You've got to face reality. I've heard and seen free KJV Bible commercials from the Mormon church going back over 20 years. Are you going to believe what Jesus has said in these verses printed, published, and offered by the Mormon church and take them at face value?
As a Latter-day Saint (Mormon Christian), I do believe the Bible. I study it often, and try to live according to the truths it contains. During the worst periods of my life, I have taken great comfort from the Bible. I recommend it to all.
Or are you forever going to have truth filtered for you through the Mormon church? God has promised through Isaiah that His Word would not return void & empty. He has promised through Hebrews that His Word was living & active, slicing through us even to our marrow.
Filtered? What an odd thing to say. I have been taught all my life in the LDS Church not to rely on what anyone else for my testimony of the Gospel. Quite the contrary. We are urged to study the Gospel and to ask God for personal, direct revelation to know the truth.
I do not rely on what McConkie may have written in Mormon Doctrine (a book I never cared for much anyway). Nor do I rely on creedal statements, long-standing traditions or the opinions of learned theologians.
One more thing. As a Latter-day Saint (or Mormon Christian), I am happy to discuss my faith with everyone. However, I am not interested in quarreling or striving (see 2 Timothy 2:23-26). If anyone wishes to argue with me, feel free; but don't be offended if I don't respond in kind.
“Hail to Joseph Smith” ...
_______________________________________
Theres a “Hail to Brigham Young” song
The profit not the school...
I had the words at one time but I cant find them now..
So, please explain the difference between your versions of "argue" and "disagree".
Your statement, "This look like a straw man argument to me. Or perhaps a false dichotomy." seems to describe that you will set the limits on what you will "discuss".
I doubt it will fly.
Interesting as your (lds) 8th article of faith says "as far as it (Bible) is translated correctly".
So which parts are correct and which parts are not correct, how do you know what to study?
Oh, and no, it doesn't fly.
Nor does the concept of Mormon Christian.
That is in the same vein as military intelligence and other such non sequiturs.
Unless they attend LDS one week and say a Baptist Church the next.
Which doesn't fly either...
It’s almost too easy....
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