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Avoid Intellectual Suicide: Do Not Interpret the Bible Like a Fundamentalist
Vox Nova ^ | May 14,2 010 | Henry Karlson

Posted on 05/14/2010 11:03:45 AM PDT by NYer

Holy Scripture, despite all appearances, will not always be easy to interpret. We can be lulled into thinking our “common sense” and “by the letter” interpretation of a text is what God intends us to get out of it. However, if this is the case, there would be little to no debates about its meaning; there would be little confusion as to its purpose and how it applies to us today. St. Peter would not have needed to tell us that no prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted privately, because all interpretations of Scripture would end up the same. We need to understand and heed the warning of St. Mark the Ascetic: “Do not let your heart become conceited about your interpretations of Scripture, lest your intellect fall afoul for the spirit of blasphemy.” [1] Why would he be warning us of this? Because Scripture, in its most external, simplistic level, could easily lead people to a perverted understanding of God and the Christian faith.

For an interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable (which does not mean it is necessarily correct), it must at least conform to the basic dogmatic teachings of the Church. If God is love, this must be manifest from one’s understanding of Scripture. If one’s interpretation of a text would lead to God doing or commanding something which runs against the law of love, the law by which God himself acts, then one has indeed committed blasphemy. If one really believes God commands some intrinsic evil, such as genocide, one has abandoned the God who is love, and has at least committed unintentional blasphemy by something evil about him. One cannot get out of this by saying, “whatever God wills, is now good,” or that “the very nature of right and wrong has changed through time,” because both would contradict not only the fundamental character of love, but also the fact God has provided us a positive means by which we can understand something of him via analogy; we know what love is, we know what the good is, and therefore we know something about God when we see he is love or that he is good. While we must understand our concepts are limited in relation to God, it is not because God is less than our concepts, but more and their foundation. Thus, Pope Benedict wisely says:

In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God’s voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God’s freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazm and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God’s transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which – as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated – unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul – “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[2]

Christianity affirms both the transcendence and immanence of God. The second allows us to say something positive and true about God, while the first reminds us that positive assertions are limited, that they are at best analogous pointers to something beyond the statements themselves. Our teachings truly say something about God. They must be used as the guideline by which we read Scripture. Moreover, as the Church makes abundantly clear, Scripture is itself an ecclesial document, to be interpreted in and by the Church. It must be interpreted in such a way that dogmatic teachings about God (such as his unchanging goodness) are in accord with our understanding of Scriptural text. If reason suggests a disconnect between an interpretation and dogma, we must follow dogma and dismiss the interpretation. Richard Gaillardetz explains this well:

The apostolic witness would be preserved both in the canonical Scriptures and in the ongoing paradosis or handing on of the apostolic faith in the Christian community. The unity of Scripture and tradition is grounded then in the one word whose presence in human history comes to its unsurpassable actualization in Jesus Christ. Scripture and tradition must be viewed as interrelated witnesses to that word. Furthermore, neither Scripture nor tradition can be separated from the Church. The unity of Scripture, tradition and the living communion of the Church itself is fundamental.[3]

Revelation, therefore, is centered upon Jesus Christ – and through Christ, the whole of the Holy Trinity:

The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy.[4]

If the vision of God that one gets out of Scripture is not one which reveals his justice and mercy, the reader of the text has missed something about the text itself. Perhaps the mistake lies in their interpretive scheme, where they assume the text follows the contours of modern historical writings. This is not the case; indeed Christians since the beginning of Church history have understood a very different scheme for the Biblical text: one which presents a kind of history but uses that history to present a deeper, more fundamental understanding of the world. Texts which are seen as impossible, if interpreted as history, nonetheless must be accepted, not because they are historical, but because they reveal something theological. St. Neilos the Ascetic, for example, takes 2 Samuel 4:5-8[5] as being historically absurd. This, he thinks, should be obvious. But if this is the case, does it make the text meaningless? By no means:

It is clear that this story in Scripture should not be taken literally. For how could a king have a woman as door-keeper, when he ought properly to be guarded by a troop of soldiers, and to have round him a large body of attendants? Or how could he be so poor as to use her to winnow the wheat? But improbable details are often included in a story because of the deeper truths they signify. Thus the intellect in each of us resides within like a king, while the reason acts as door-keeper of the senses. When the reason occupies itself with bodily things – and to winnow wheat is something bodily – he enemy without difficulty slips past unnoticed and slays the intellect.[6]

This scheme was in accord with what Origen taught. Indeed, he believed that the writers were inspired to put in statements which were absurd so as to remind us not to take the text so simply, but to look for the deeper, spiritual nourishment we can get from them, even for those texts which also have a real historical basis:

But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious, the word of God has arranged that certain stumbling-blocks, as it were, and offenses, and impossibili­ties, should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history, in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive na­ture of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learn­ing nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine. And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the spiritual connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning; but where, in the narrative of the develop­ment of super-sensual things, there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning, the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place, sometimes what could not have happened; sometimes what could, but did not. And sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, and sometimes a larger number.[7]

Scripture, of course, was written by various people. While they were inspired by God to write what they wrote, and God inspired the Church to collect the texts it did, in the form it did, we must also understand that the people behind the texts are not mere puppets being forced by God to write as they did. Thus, when patristic authors, or the Church, asserts God as the author of the text, we must not take this as fundamentalists do, but rather recognize that God works with authors based upon their ability and through their cooperation with his intended purposes: “The fathers look upon the Bible above all as the Book of God, the single work of a single author. This does not mean, however, that they reduce the human authors to nothing more than passive instruments; they are quite capable, also, of according to a particular book its own specific purpose.”[8] Indeed, God can inspires people to reveal something about him without their knowing of it, or knowing the meaning behind their words, as St Edith Stein masterfully explains:

Must the inspired person who is the instrument of a divine revelation be aware of the fact? Must he know that he has been illuminated, must he himself have received a revelation? We may well imagine cases where none of this is true. It is not impossible that someone utter a revelation without realizing it, without having received a revelation from God, without even being aware that he is speaking in God’s name or feeling supported by God’s Spirit in what he says and how he says it. He may think he is only voicing his own insight and in the words of his choosing.

Thus Caiphas says in the Sanhedrin : ‘You know nothing and do not consider that it is better for you that one man die for the people and not the whole people parish.’ And John adds: ‘but his he said not of himself but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the people…’ Hence Caiphas spoke in God’s name and followed divine instructions without either knowing it or wishing to do so. John, however, knows that Caiphas was speaking God’s word and perhaps that he was himself enlightened by God as he wrote this. Does John know the prophetic meaning of Caiphas’ words through a revelation accorded him? Quite possibly. But it may also be that the fulfillment of those words in the death of Jesus and John’s view of the overall work of salvation made him realize their prophetic nature.[9]

Now this is not to say it is the norm, nor common, but, as we see, a person inspired by God does not have to understand the meaning of their words, nor that they are actually saying something that will be collected together as being inspired by God. The intention of God as the inspired author of Scripture does not have to be one with the intended meaning of the human author, and indeed, could be one which runs contrary to what such a human might have thought (as, for example, we find in the case of Jonah).

Thus, it is important to discuss inspiration, but as the Pontifical Biblical Commission warns us, we must not follow the simplistic interpretation found within fundamentalism:

Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.[10]

And, it is especially when people take the Bible as history where this becomes the problem. “Fundamentalism also places undue stress upon the inerrancy of certain details in the biblical texts, especially in what concerns historical events or supposedly scientific truth.”[11] It creates a false, blasphemous view of God through its simplistic understanding of the text, and demand adherence to that simplistic view, with the explanation that if one denies this scheme, one must reject Scripture itself. There is no basis by which one can understand the deeper, spiritual value of revelation. And it is for this reason it ends up creating an evil-looking God, and promotes the acceptance of intrinsic evils such as racism or genocide as being good if and when God commanded them. “Fundamentalism likewise tends to adopt very narrow points of view. It accepts the literal reality of an ancient, out-of-date cosmology simply because it is found expressed in the Bible; this blocks any dialogue with a broader way of seeing the relationship between culture and faith. Its relying upon a non-critical reading of certain texts of the Bible serves to reinforce political ideas and social attitudes that are marked by prejudices—racism, for example—quite contrary to the Christian Gospel.”[12] While simple, it is this simplicity which leads to a letter that kills, because it requires a denial of reason when engaging the faith, and leading to “intellectual suicide”:

The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the problems of life. It can deceive these people, offering them interpretations that are pious but illusory, instead of telling them that the Bible does not necessarily contain an immediate answer to each and every problem. Without saying as much in so many words, fundamentalism actually invites people to a kind of intellectual suicide. It injects into life a false certitude, for it unwittingly confuses the divine substance of the biblical message with what are in fact its human limitations.[13]

No wonder St Mark the Ascetic warned us to be careful when we interpreted Scripture. He understood how people would confuse the human side of Scripture with its divine meaning, and how that would end up creating a false, humanly constructed, image of God. A God presented in the image of fallen humanity can only be a monster, the monster which we see proclaimed by fundamentalists the world over.

Footnotes

[1] Mark the Monk, “On the Spiritual Law” in Counsels on the Spiritual Life. Trans. Tim Vivian and Augustine Casiday (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2009), 93.

[2] Pope Benedict, Regensburg Lecture, Sept 12, 2006.

[3] Richard R. Gaillardetz, Teaching with Authority: A Theology of the Magisterium of the Church (Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1997), 84.

[4] Dei Verbum 15 (Vatican Translation).

[5]“ Now the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab and Baanah, set out, and about the heat of the day they came to the house of Ishbosheth, as he was taking his noonday rest. And behold, the doorkeeper of the house had been cleaning wheat, but she grew drowsy and slept; so Rechab and Baanah his brother slipped in. When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night, and brought the head of Ishbosheth to David at Hebron. And they said to the king, ‘Here is the head of Ishbosheth, the son of Saul, your enemy, who sought your life; the LORD has avenged my lord the king this day on Saul and on his offspring’” (2 Sam 4:5-8 RSV).

[6] St Neilos the Ascetic, “Ascetic Discourse” in The Philokalia. Volume I. Trans. And ed. By G.E.H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard and Kallistos Ware (London: Faber and Faber, 1983), 210.

[7] Origen, “On First Principles” in ANF(4), 364.

[8] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (March 18, 1994), III-B.2

[9] St Edith Stein, “Ways to know God” in Knowledge and Faith. Trans. Walter Redmond (Washington, DC: ICS Publications, 2000), 103.

[10] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, I-F.

[11] Ibid.

[12] Ibid.

[13] Ibid.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; bible; catholic; fundamentalist; religiousleft; religiousright; scripture; seminary
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To: metmom

Outstandingly well said, dear sister in Christ!


601 posted on 05/17/2010 9:53:50 PM PDT by betty boop (Nil desperandum.)
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To: betty boop

Jesus said, “And if your brother sin against you, go, rebuke him between you and him alone: if he hears you, you have gained your brother” (Matt. 18:15).

But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. (1 Cor. 14:24)

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:2-3)

But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and all the other evil things he had done, (Luke 3:19)

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Eph. 5:11)

602 posted on 05/17/2010 9:58:27 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: betty boop; delacoert; DrewsMum; allmendream; metmom
I'm with you, dearest sister in Christ. I choose not to strive with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. – Romans 14:7-13

When I step into it, it's often to underscore the Great Commandment, to love God surpassingly above all else (Matt 22.) For instance, to give God the glory concerning something being discussed or to keep priorities straight.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7

However, I cannot abide someone calling himself Christian when he doesn't Who Christ IS. So I speak up then, too.

But I try very hard not to judge the person himself.

God's justice is perfectly balanced. We each individually build the scales by which we will each individually be weighed.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. - Matthew 7:1-2

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

603 posted on 05/17/2010 10:07:54 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN
Indeed. Thank you so much for those beautiful examples and insights, dear brother in Christ!

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:26-27

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. – Hebrews 13:2

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

604 posted on 05/17/2010 10:14:54 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
But what they often do think about is the idea that human knowledge has no limits....

This is manifestly untrue.

Indeed.

Thank you so very much for your insights, dearest sister in Christ, and for your encouragements!

605 posted on 05/17/2010 10:17:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: metmom
I believe the pro-life stance concerning abortion and the use of abortifacient drugs, like most "birth control" pills, can be justified based upon the commandment of God that murder is wrong. Intentionally killing an unborn child through abortion or "just-in-case" as a backup method of the pill, which causes rejection of the implantation of a fertilized egg, are morally wrong because of this murder prohibition. The IUD device also works by causing this kind of "mini-abortion" and is equally wrong.

However, if the RCC is going to make "infallible" doctrinal statements and demand ALL who use the name "Catholic" follow their rules, they should try to be consistent, at least. It just seems odd to me that Natural Family Planning, which is basically knowing when a woman is most likely fertile and avoiding sexual intercourse during that time, is approved, but using a "barrier method" like condoms is disapproved. Same thing with other methods that prevent conception without destroying a human life.

I'm glad the Catholic Church comes out so strongly in favor of life, but I think they go overboard when they try to dictate to married couples about their sexual relations and when and if they bring children into the world.

606 posted on 05/17/2010 10:23:14 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
Just curious

Really? Just curious?

This question gives another chance to talk about how the development of doctrine works on the ground. I'm not going to reread HV right now but I think it contemplates using the biological principles which inform NFP to regulate conception. But since the key issue of HV is artificial contraception I'd say it leaves room for further definition on NFP-type stuff.

However it is already clear that, however one achieves it, it is not licit for a fertile couple to choose to have no children. So even current teaching is that the principles of NFP can be misused.

As to the argument that the intention behind NFP is the same as that behind ABC so what's the big deal? The big deal, or part of it, is that there is a difference between surgically or chemically changing the natural functioning of a thing and observing the natural function and adjusting to it. ABC tends in a gnostic direction: We are not our bodies but we can monkey with them and their inconvenient healthy functioning to get what we want out of them. Also, within a family which views matrimony as a vehicle and arena of grace, the intentionality about intercourse which NFP requires seems to enhance sex and the relationship.

A candidate to be admitted to full communion expressed her concern about this HV stuff. We had a good relationship so I got up the nerve to ask her,"When your husband is amorous,haven't you at least once said to yourself,'Well, this shouldn't take long,' slipped a bookmark into your book, and turned to welcome his embraces?" She laughed. Then she looked thoughtful and nodded.

There is a real, live person, for whom Christ was content to die, on the other end of that sex organ. NFP helps couples remember that.

607 posted on 05/18/2010 12:50:38 AM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: boatbums; Melian
Melian should have said "innocent life."

It is only recently (and NOT de fide) that we've gotten all jittery about capital punishment.

The error in heretic toasting was in confusing heresy with treason, not necessarily in prescribing death to traitors. For a while a lot of heresies had a political side to them. Remember the SETTLEMENT of all the fighting around the Reformation was NOT religious freedom but "cuius regio, eius religio." The local prince got to say what the local religion was.

In that context, it is a little easier to understand how heresy and treason could be confused.

608 posted on 05/18/2010 12:58:47 AM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: boatbums; metmom
It is of course the kind of nonsense we are used to hearing that the Catholic Church requires priests and nuns to be unmarried. Celibacy is the NORM in the Latin rite. There are exceptions, and there are other rites. And the charge about nuns etc. is like saying the Vatican unjustly requires triangles to have three sides.

Okay,I admit it: If you voluntarily choose to enter a community and to make a lifetime commitment to this voluntary community, and if the voluntary community only admits unmarried people, then--oh, the SHAME!-- the Vatican requires you to be unmarried.

There are other religious associations, sodalities, fraternities, orders, etc. which allow one to be married. I am blessed to be a member of what is currently called "The Lay Fraternities of Saint Dominic" (or LFSD. I had suggested it be the Laity of St Dominic, or LSD, but nobody listens to me. I'm SEW frustrated.)It has vows, rules, the whole schmeer.

But yes, if you want to be a member of an unmarried community, the Vatican unjustly requires you to be unmarried.

And this silliness actually relates to BB's remark about the Curia climbing into the marital bed. (King size mattress recommended.)

Sure, from the outside it LOOKS like, and from the inside it sometimes feels like, there's this bunch o' guys making rules. But from the POV of the guys,not so much.

They have a pastoral responsibility. That means letting the sheep into paddocks where there is grass and clover. AND it means keeping them out of paddocks where there are locoweed and laurel.

The archaic command is to be fruitful. Of old children are a blessing, and the sterile bed a burden and a sorrow.

I heartily, seriously, recommend finding a library which maintains copies of the incredibly excellent conservative, interfaith but mostly Catholic, periodical First Things . Look for the article by Mary Eberstadt of the Hoover Institute called "The Vindication of Humanae Vitae." There are social and demographic trends which may prove to be disastrous and many of which were predicted in Humanae Vitae.

I used to think the Catholics were a bunch of neurotic fuddy-duddies. But IMHO for almost50 years, maybe more, the predictions of the neurotic fuddy-duddies have been coming true, while the utopia promised by the vibrant, healthy, and sexually satisfied kewel people seems to be stuck on a siding somewhere west of Ottumwa.

I'm going with the fuddy-duddies.

609 posted on 05/18/2010 1:37:23 AM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
 
But thanx for sharing despite your lack of credibility.




"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.



610 posted on 05/18/2010 4:13:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MarkBsnr
As often as we do it, we remember Him.

Which was ONCE a year; at PASSOVER.

611 posted on 05/18/2010 4:14:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: melsec
Thats a keeper

They were all right there in plain view; in our Bible...

612 posted on 05/18/2010 4:15:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delacoert
For all of our cross-denominational (inter-Nicene) vehemence, we Redeemed all agree there is no salvation outside of Christ.

We merely fight over WHO gets to say (with 'authority'), "Come see a man."

613 posted on 05/18/2010 4:16:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delacoert
"No man cometh to the Father, but by Me."

We merely fight over WHO gets to say (with 'authority'), "No man (or woman) cometh to JESUS, but by US!"

614 posted on 05/18/2010 4:18:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
I am not aware that the LDS Church has ever declared an official doctrine on such things as multiple universes or daily life in the celestial kingdom. In the absence of an official declaration (or direct revelation), we are free to draw our own conclusions.

And THIS is why trying to pin down MORMONism to ANYTHING is like the proverbial Jello® nailing to the tree.


(I like the OFFICIAL spin ;^)

615 posted on 05/18/2010 4:20:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Man is not the measure of God!

"Yeah! Look at me!"

--Delmar O'Donnell

616 posted on 05/18/2010 4:23:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delacoert

are you not able to judge those within?


617 posted on 05/18/2010 4:26:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
...using a "barrier method" like condoms is disapproved.

That's what ya get when ONAN's act is misINTERPRETED.

618 posted on 05/18/2010 4:29:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
I'm glad the Catholic Church comes out so strongly in favor of life, but I think they go overboard when they try to dictate to married couples about their sexual relations and when and if they bring children into the world.
 
 
If you REALLY want OVERBOARD.....


What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?
 




prophet kimball"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982


spencer kimball"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65


spencer kimball"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
-
Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196


"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.


kimball"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965


"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155


"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.



619 posted on 05/18/2010 4:31:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

http://www.gotwavs.com/0059305935/WAVS/Movies/O_Brother_Where_Art_Thou/rancor.wav


620 posted on 05/18/2010 4:59:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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