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Avoid Intellectual Suicide: Do Not Interpret the Bible Like a Fundamentalist
Vox Nova ^ | May 14,2 010 | Henry Karlson

Posted on 05/14/2010 11:03:45 AM PDT by NYer

Holy Scripture, despite all appearances, will not always be easy to interpret. We can be lulled into thinking our “common sense” and “by the letter” interpretation of a text is what God intends us to get out of it. However, if this is the case, there would be little to no debates about its meaning; there would be little confusion as to its purpose and how it applies to us today. St. Peter would not have needed to tell us that no prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted privately, because all interpretations of Scripture would end up the same. We need to understand and heed the warning of St. Mark the Ascetic: “Do not let your heart become conceited about your interpretations of Scripture, lest your intellect fall afoul for the spirit of blasphemy.” [1] Why would he be warning us of this? Because Scripture, in its most external, simplistic level, could easily lead people to a perverted understanding of God and the Christian faith.

For an interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable (which does not mean it is necessarily correct), it must at least conform to the basic dogmatic teachings of the Church. If God is love, this must be manifest from one’s understanding of Scripture. If one’s interpretation of a text would lead to God doing or commanding something which runs against the law of love, the law by which God himself acts, then one has indeed committed blasphemy. If one really believes God commands some intrinsic evil, such as genocide, one has abandoned the God who is love, and has at least committed unintentional blasphemy by something evil about him. One cannot get out of this by saying, “whatever God wills, is now good,” or that “the very nature of right and wrong has changed through time,” because both would contradict not only the fundamental character of love, but also the fact God has provided us a positive means by which we can understand something of him via analogy; we know what love is, we know what the good is, and therefore we know something about God when we see he is love or that he is good. While we must understand our concepts are limited in relation to God, it is not because God is less than our concepts, but more and their foundation. Thus, Pope Benedict wisely says:

In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God’s voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God’s freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazm and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God’s transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which – as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated – unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul – “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[2]

Christianity affirms both the transcendence and immanence of God. The second allows us to say something positive and true about God, while the first reminds us that positive assertions are limited, that they are at best analogous pointers to something beyond the statements themselves. Our teachings truly say something about God. They must be used as the guideline by which we read Scripture. Moreover, as the Church makes abundantly clear, Scripture is itself an ecclesial document, to be interpreted in and by the Church. It must be interpreted in such a way that dogmatic teachings about God (such as his unchanging goodness) are in accord with our understanding of Scriptural text. If reason suggests a disconnect between an interpretation and dogma, we must follow dogma and dismiss the interpretation. Richard Gaillardetz explains this well:

The apostolic witness would be preserved both in the canonical Scriptures and in the ongoing paradosis or handing on of the apostolic faith in the Christian community. The unity of Scripture and tradition is grounded then in the one word whose presence in human history comes to its unsurpassable actualization in Jesus Christ. Scripture and tradition must be viewed as interrelated witnesses to that word. Furthermore, neither Scripture nor tradition can be separated from the Church. The unity of Scripture, tradition and the living communion of the Church itself is fundamental.[3]

Revelation, therefore, is centered upon Jesus Christ – and through Christ, the whole of the Holy Trinity:

The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy.[4]

If the vision of God that one gets out of Scripture is not one which reveals his justice and mercy, the reader of the text has missed something about the text itself. Perhaps the mistake lies in their interpretive scheme, where they assume the text follows the contours of modern historical writings. This is not the case; indeed Christians since the beginning of Church history have understood a very different scheme for the Biblical text: one which presents a kind of history but uses that history to present a deeper, more fundamental understanding of the world. Texts which are seen as impossible, if interpreted as history, nonetheless must be accepted, not because they are historical, but because they reveal something theological. St. Neilos the Ascetic, for example, takes 2 Samuel 4:5-8[5] as being historically absurd. This, he thinks, should be obvious. But if this is the case, does it make the text meaningless? By no means:

It is clear that this story in Scripture should not be taken literally. For how could a king have a woman as door-keeper, when he ought properly to be guarded by a troop of soldiers, and to have round him a large body of attendants? Or how could he be so poor as to use her to winnow the wheat? But improbable details are often included in a story because of the deeper truths they signify. Thus the intellect in each of us resides within like a king, while the reason acts as door-keeper of the senses. When the reason occupies itself with bodily things – and to winnow wheat is something bodily – he enemy without difficulty slips past unnoticed and slays the intellect.[6]

This scheme was in accord with what Origen taught. Indeed, he believed that the writers were inspired to put in statements which were absurd so as to remind us not to take the text so simply, but to look for the deeper, spiritual nourishment we can get from them, even for those texts which also have a real historical basis:

But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious, the word of God has arranged that certain stumbling-blocks, as it were, and offenses, and impossibili­ties, should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history, in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive na­ture of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learn­ing nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine. And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the spiritual connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning; but where, in the narrative of the develop­ment of super-sensual things, there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning, the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place, sometimes what could not have happened; sometimes what could, but did not. And sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, and sometimes a larger number.[7]

Scripture, of course, was written by various people. While they were inspired by God to write what they wrote, and God inspired the Church to collect the texts it did, in the form it did, we must also understand that the people behind the texts are not mere puppets being forced by God to write as they did. Thus, when patristic authors, or the Church, asserts God as the author of the text, we must not take this as fundamentalists do, but rather recognize that God works with authors based upon their ability and through their cooperation with his intended purposes: “The fathers look upon the Bible above all as the Book of God, the single work of a single author. This does not mean, however, that they reduce the human authors to nothing more than passive instruments; they are quite capable, also, of according to a particular book its own specific purpose.”[8] Indeed, God can inspires people to reveal something about him without their knowing of it, or knowing the meaning behind their words, as St Edith Stein masterfully explains:

Must the inspired person who is the instrument of a divine revelation be aware of the fact? Must he know that he has been illuminated, must he himself have received a revelation? We may well imagine cases where none of this is true. It is not impossible that someone utter a revelation without realizing it, without having received a revelation from God, without even being aware that he is speaking in God’s name or feeling supported by God’s Spirit in what he says and how he says it. He may think he is only voicing his own insight and in the words of his choosing.

Thus Caiphas says in the Sanhedrin : ‘You know nothing and do not consider that it is better for you that one man die for the people and not the whole people parish.’ And John adds: ‘but his he said not of himself but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the people…’ Hence Caiphas spoke in God’s name and followed divine instructions without either knowing it or wishing to do so. John, however, knows that Caiphas was speaking God’s word and perhaps that he was himself enlightened by God as he wrote this. Does John know the prophetic meaning of Caiphas’ words through a revelation accorded him? Quite possibly. But it may also be that the fulfillment of those words in the death of Jesus and John’s view of the overall work of salvation made him realize their prophetic nature.[9]

Now this is not to say it is the norm, nor common, but, as we see, a person inspired by God does not have to understand the meaning of their words, nor that they are actually saying something that will be collected together as being inspired by God. The intention of God as the inspired author of Scripture does not have to be one with the intended meaning of the human author, and indeed, could be one which runs contrary to what such a human might have thought (as, for example, we find in the case of Jonah).

Thus, it is important to discuss inspiration, but as the Pontifical Biblical Commission warns us, we must not follow the simplistic interpretation found within fundamentalism:

Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.[10]

And, it is especially when people take the Bible as history where this becomes the problem. “Fundamentalism also places undue stress upon the inerrancy of certain details in the biblical texts, especially in what concerns historical events or supposedly scientific truth.”[11] It creates a false, blasphemous view of God through its simplistic understanding of the text, and demand adherence to that simplistic view, with the explanation that if one denies this scheme, one must reject Scripture itself. There is no basis by which one can understand the deeper, spiritual value of revelation. And it is for this reason it ends up creating an evil-looking God, and promotes the acceptance of intrinsic evils such as racism or genocide as being good if and when God commanded them. “Fundamentalism likewise tends to adopt very narrow points of view. It accepts the literal reality of an ancient, out-of-date cosmology simply because it is found expressed in the Bible; this blocks any dialogue with a broader way of seeing the relationship between culture and faith. Its relying upon a non-critical reading of certain texts of the Bible serves to reinforce political ideas and social attitudes that are marked by prejudices—racism, for example—quite contrary to the Christian Gospel.”[12] While simple, it is this simplicity which leads to a letter that kills, because it requires a denial of reason when engaging the faith, and leading to “intellectual suicide”:

The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the problems of life. It can deceive these people, offering them interpretations that are pious but illusory, instead of telling them that the Bible does not necessarily contain an immediate answer to each and every problem. Without saying as much in so many words, fundamentalism actually invites people to a kind of intellectual suicide. It injects into life a false certitude, for it unwittingly confuses the divine substance of the biblical message with what are in fact its human limitations.[13]

No wonder St Mark the Ascetic warned us to be careful when we interpreted Scripture. He understood how people would confuse the human side of Scripture with its divine meaning, and how that would end up creating a false, humanly constructed, image of God. A God presented in the image of fallen humanity can only be a monster, the monster which we see proclaimed by fundamentalists the world over.

Footnotes

[1] Mark the Monk, “On the Spiritual Law” in Counsels on the Spiritual Life. Trans. Tim Vivian and Augustine Casiday (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2009), 93.

[2] Pope Benedict, Regensburg Lecture, Sept 12, 2006.

[3] Richard R. Gaillardetz, Teaching with Authority: A Theology of the Magisterium of the Church (Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1997), 84.

[4] Dei Verbum 15 (Vatican Translation).

[5]“ Now the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab and Baanah, set out, and about the heat of the day they came to the house of Ishbosheth, as he was taking his noonday rest. And behold, the doorkeeper of the house had been cleaning wheat, but she grew drowsy and slept; so Rechab and Baanah his brother slipped in. When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night, and brought the head of Ishbosheth to David at Hebron. And they said to the king, ‘Here is the head of Ishbosheth, the son of Saul, your enemy, who sought your life; the LORD has avenged my lord the king this day on Saul and on his offspring’” (2 Sam 4:5-8 RSV).

[6] St Neilos the Ascetic, “Ascetic Discourse” in The Philokalia. Volume I. Trans. And ed. By G.E.H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard and Kallistos Ware (London: Faber and Faber, 1983), 210.

[7] Origen, “On First Principles” in ANF(4), 364.

[8] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (March 18, 1994), III-B.2

[9] St Edith Stein, “Ways to know God” in Knowledge and Faith. Trans. Walter Redmond (Washington, DC: ICS Publications, 2000), 103.

[10] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, I-F.

[11] Ibid.

[12] Ibid.

[13] Ibid.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; bible; catholic; fundamentalist; religiousleft; religiousright; scripture; seminary
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To: Elsie

As often as we do it, we remember Him. So, let’s remember Him as often as we can.


581 posted on 05/17/2010 7:00:53 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Elsie

Thats a keeper

Blessings

Mel


582 posted on 05/17/2010 7:02:27 PM PDT by melsec
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To: betty boop
I enjoyed reading your post. In particular, I thought your statement was uncommonly succinct and true... found as it was in the middle of the usual Religion Forum wrangling, especially in the midst of a discussion about INTERPRETATION of Scripture.

For all of our cross-denominational (inter-Nicene) vehemence, we Redeemed all agree there is no salvation outside of Christ.

Having said that, I gotta disagree with your application (interpretation) of the scriptural caution:

Far too often the injunction against judgment is used by those who know better. There is no shortage of scripture that instructs God's people to judge and correct others. When I see the "it's not right to judge others" clause used, it almost always in a falsely pious attempt to take the high ground.

To say that another Christian or group of Christians is in error does not endanger anyone at the last judgment.

To suggest that someone's interpretation of scripture is in error is not the same as saying the scripture is in error.

Just my thoughts.

583 posted on 05/17/2010 7:18:46 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: DrewsMum; betty boop; allmendream; P-Marlowe; metmom
To the contrary, dear DrewsMum, betty boop summed it up clearly when she said:

In a nutshell, we observers tend to see what we're looking for, and tend to remain blind about all else.

allmendream in the present discussion takes a hard position as an observer in his present space/time coordinates. He argues vigorously that reality "is" a 15 billion year old universe, etc. – that Scriptures must be interpreted in light of his sense of reality. He evidently has no use for the perspective of other observers.

Long ago on a thread I can no longer recall, P-Marlowe in stark contrast said to the effect that since we believe Christ is God, incarnated in the flesh in the body of a virgin, performed miracles – none the least of which was raising the dead, walking on water, causing the blind to see, the crippled to walk, making water into wine – died for our sins, rose again and now is in heaven and will come again at the end of the age … why on earth would any Christian not also believe the Creation account in Genesis, the Noah Flood, etc.?

Different observer, different perspective, different reality, different understanding of Scripture. Both Christian.

In our two posts, 512 and 471, betty boop and I explore that phenomenon which we call the “observer problem.”

It is not an easy subject to explore. It involves on the one hand theology and philosophy and on the other, mathematics and physics.

But it is important, in my opinion, for people to realize that every single mortal person suffers from the observer problem. Man regularly thinks he knows more than he possibly could ever know. Even his physical senses deceive him.

Moreover, God wants us to notice the observer problem.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Pet 3:8

Indeed, the book of Job ends with Job’s repentance for speaking words without knowledge after God read him the riot act.

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee. Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes. - Job 42:1-6

The moral of the story, as betty boop has explained somewhere on this thread, is that God alone sees ‘all that there is’ all at once. Only He speaks objective Truth. Indeed, a thing is true because He says it.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. – Genesis 1:3

For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:9

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

Man is not the measure of God.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

584 posted on 05/17/2010 8:17:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr
I don't get to call heresy. The Church does; we are discussing Christianity here. Any departure from Christianity is heresy at least.

Which church? Christianity encompasses many different churches and denominations, which often disagree with each other on what constitutes heresy and orthodoxy.

If your particular church or denomination considers my beliefs heretical . . . well, I can live with that.

Still, I would like to know which branches of Christianity believe that Christ is disembodied. Perhaps someone will enlighten me.

The point is, what is the official doctrine?

I am not aware that the LDS Church has ever declared an official doctrine on such things as multiple universes or daily life in the celestial kingdom. In the absence of an official declaration (or direct revelation), we are free to draw our own conclusions.

There is no harm in that, so long as our speculations do not distract us from the truly important matters, such as faith, hope, and charity. I trust that everything will be revealed to those who endure faithfully to the end.

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every awork into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)


585 posted on 05/17/2010 8:42:57 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: betty boop; allmendream; Alamo-Girl; DrewsMum
The Bible doesn't give us a "definitive age" for anything. It reveals a tension between God's view from eternity (especially noticeable in Genesis 1–3 as A-G has pointed out) and the view from man's contingent, finite position within that eternity — i.e., "within God's Time" — which is (from our human point of view) "no-time," or timelessness.... Humans experience time in a way radically different than God does, Who sees everything in heaven and on earth "from Alpha to Omega" simultaneously — that is, ALL AT ONCE, as if in a single eternal moment.

We humans, on the other hand, are relentlessly conditioned to sense time as serial and irreversible, moving moment to moment from past to present to future.

Which is exactly why it is such a mistake to assume that our frame of reference is the one to use in interpreting Scripture.

This demand of presuming that scientists have a corner on the determining what is reality market and that their determination is the standard by which we interpret Scripture is rigidly dogmatic of them.

Evolutionists as a whole, tend to scorn anyone who disagrees with them, even to the point of condemning those of obviously significantly greater intellect that they, as if FRevos are brilliant enough to sit in judgment of men of genius and education like Schroeder.

The derision of those who don't think lock step with FRevos adherence to the ToE shows not only their lack of intellectual prowess, but the height of their arrogance.

586 posted on 05/17/2010 8:43:44 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law

Christ vociferously condemned the traditions of men when He saw them in the Pharisees.

And Catholics expect us to believe that He’d then turn around and establish an organization based on the thing that He condemned most?

*Tradition* didn’t produce anything. Men wrote what was inspired to them by the Holy Spirit. Later those writings happened to be collected together into one convenient text.

And no, the Catholic Church didn’t write the Bible. Men did and the Catholic Church coming along and proclaiming that the men who wrote the Bible were the *Church Fathers* therefore the Catholic Church *wrote* the Bible is as intellectually dishonest as it comes.


587 posted on 05/17/2010 8:51:19 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Long ago on a thread I can no longer recall, P-Marlowe in stark contrast said to the effect that since we believe Christ is God, incarnated in the flesh in the body of a virgin, performed miracles – none the least of which was raising the dead, walking on water, causing the blind to see, the crippled to walk, making water into wine – died for our sins, rose again and now is in heaven and will come again at the end of the age … why on earth would any Christian not also believe the Creation account in Genesis, the Noah Flood, etc.?

Funny how acceptance of all the other miracles in the Bible that you mentioned are not met with accusations of *geocentrist*, *flat-earther*, and *Luddite* and screeds about wanting to take us back into the Dark Ages, but when it comes to taking God at His word concerning the creation account, well.... that's a different story.

Details, details......

588 posted on 05/17/2010 8:56:07 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: betty boop
So because you dislike someone's INTERPRETATION of Scripture, your attack and fallback positions are conjured up from naturalistic science?

Don't forget that an INTERPRETATION that you find unacceptable still very much belongs to the domain of "observed reality." The problem is, not everything in observed/observable reality reduces to the techniques of scientific analysis (e.g., direct observation, replicable experiments, etc.), and this would be an example. Get used to it! :^)

Indeed.

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

589 posted on 05/17/2010 8:57:02 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Melian; Mad Dawg; metmom

Just curious...does this “infallible doctrine” regarding the conjugal act also include “Natural Family Planning”?


590 posted on 05/17/2010 9:03:03 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: metmom
Funny how acceptance of all the other miracles in the Bible that you mentioned are not met with accusations of *geocentrist*, *flat-earther*, and *Luddite* and screeds about wanting to take us back into the Dark Ages, but when it comes to taking God at His word concerning the creation account, well.... that's a different story.

So very true, dear sister in Christ!

I doubt if the "scholars" or "naturalists" will give up until they have invented a "god" that fits within their boundaries of what they think "a" "god" can and cannot do.

Man is not the measure of God!

591 posted on 05/17/2010 9:03:54 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Melian; metmom
In other words, the Catholic Church, of course, has always taught that life is sacred

Except, of course, if it is the life of a "heretic" - those lives are okay to snuff out at any point in the life-cycle. Right? I'd be careful with the "always" and "never" statements. I never say, "always". :o)

592 posted on 05/17/2010 9:10:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: delacoert; Alamo-Girl; DrewsMum; allmendream; P-Marlowe; metmom
To say that another Christian or group of Christians is in error does not endanger anyone at the last judgment.

So we are to busy ourselves about the errors of others — as we see them — rather than to recognize and correct our own errors? Possibly there are biblical passages in support of your statement, "There is no shortage of scripture that instructs God's people to judge and correct others." But as none comes readily to my mind, maybe you could give me some relevant cites?

It seems to me God's basic instruction to us His children is pretty clear and succinct: Love God with all your heart, and soul, and mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

The Scripture is not in error. If there are "errors," they reside in ourselves.

A very great error — it seems to me — is to think one can make a correct judgment about the state of another's soul, of which one really knows nothing. And then to think that somehow one's judgment is truthful — when one cannot possibly say that without first saying that one knows all the relevant factors that go into making a truthful judgment in such a matter. Another factor is our belief that we have the "correct" reading of the Holy Scriptures. Of course, this is a judgment, too — one that makes all other readings untenable by fiat.

Why shouldn't I think this is an exercise, not in "false piety," but of the pious form of libido dominandi?

What restrains that is my belief that it is not my business to judge you, but only simply to hear you out and try to understand what you see.

Just a last thought: Christianity is finally not about what we know, but about how we live.

Or so it seems to me. JMHO FWIW Thank you for sharing your thoughts, delacoert!

593 posted on 05/17/2010 9:26:31 PM PDT by betty boop (Nil desperandum.)
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To: allmendream; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
A creationist is someone who believes in creation of all species of animals nearly simultaneously by supernatural means, as opposed to a naturalistic mechanism such as evolution through natural selection and the common descent of species over time.

You wish.....

I am using the familiar and common definition as being of the movement founded in and devoted to the opposition to the theory of evolution through natural selection of genetic variation.

You are not. You are using it as you wish it would be used.

Near as anyone can figure, you so despise the creationist worldview and the stigma you and other scientists put on being a creationist, that you will do anything to avoid having the label in any way, shape, or form applied to you, even when what you believe is creationist in nature.

If you wish to distinguish Young Earth Creationist (which is what you are actually describing) as opposed to a creationist in the generally accepted meaning of the word which everyone but you uses, you are free to specify. What you are not free to do is to change the definition of a word to suit your agenda and then demand that everyone with whom you converse adhere to that definition, especially since there are other well know labels, like *YEC- Young Earth Creationist* which you can use.

No matter how many times you throw your little temper tantrum about redefining that term, nobody is going to buy it.

Ironically, FRevos, who are the first to scream bloody murder when they think that non-scientists are trying to define scientific terms, have no compunction about turning around and doing the same to terms in fields outside their area of expertise.

Just as evos claim the right to define terms like *theory* and *evolution* for example, creationists therefore have the right to define terms which apply to them or their beliefs.

To demand otherwise is hypocrisy personified.

594 posted on 05/17/2010 9:30:23 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: betty boop; allmendream; DrewsMum; metmom
Thank you so very much for your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

Jewish Physicist Gerald Schroeder is standing on the shoulders of a giant:

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Albert Einstein

And there are many other physicists (Vafa, Wesson, Tegmark, et al) who focus on the geometry of space/time - some of them proposing there are more than one dimension of time. In such models, time is either a plane or volume, the arrow of time is an illusion to an observer on a worldline in space/time. Past, present and future exist concurrently.

Tegmark's metaphor of the frog and bird in his Level IV Parallel Universe makes the point very well (formatted for easier reading:)

A mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity existing outside of space and time. If history were a movie, the structure would correspond not to a single frame of it but to the entire videotape.

Consider, for example, a world made up of pointlike particles moving around in three-dimensional space. In four-dimensional spacetime — the bird perspective — these particle trajectories resemble a tangle of spaghetti.

If the frog sees a particle moving with constant velocity, the bird sees a straight strand of uncooked spaghetti. If the frog sees a pair of orbiting particles, the bird sees two spaghetti strands intertwined like a double helix.

To the frog, the world is described by Newton’s laws of motion and gravitation. To the bird, it is described by the geometry of the pasta — a mathematical structure. The frog itself is merely a thick bundle of pasta, whose highly complex intertwining corresponds to a cluster of particles that store and process information.

Our universe is far more complicated than this example, and scientists do not yet know to what, if any, mathematical structure it corresponds.

Tegmark, Max, “Parallel Universes,” Scientific American, May, 2003

The frog cannot see what the bird sees. He is an observer "in" space/time. He cannot see the beginning and end of every thing or how it fits together.

Moreover, the Bible does not purport to be a textbook in physics.

Indeed, Creation week is described by God in roughly forty statements whereas libraries are filled to the rafters with books on mathematics, physics and physical cosmology.

The words of God must be spiritually discerned.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:13-14

God's Name is I AM.

595 posted on 05/17/2010 9:31:39 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: allmendream; Iscool
God told Lott he wished he could grab the Earth by its four corners and shake out the evil.

Who's *Lott*?

And where did you come up with this alleged insight into how God thinks and what He wants? You wouldn't happen to have a Scriptural reference for this?

If you wish to discuss a passage of Scripture, you ought to cite it and give the reference so people can determine if what you're referring to is really in the Bible in the first place.

596 posted on 05/17/2010 9:38:34 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: DrewsMum; Alamo-Girl; allmendream; P-Marlowe; metmom
What if I say that I don’t interpret it the same as you and I think I can kill someone I don’t like??

Then either you do not understand God's Word, His eternal Will and Truth; or you simply refuse to be bound by it. For a flat-out, straightforward, plain-language command of God — "thou shalt not murder" — is really not something subject to much "interpretation."

You wrote: "if we go by the theory that everyone could have their “own” beliefs and be correct, then that would cause massive confusion."

That is NOT my theory. God's Truth is One Truth — and He wants us to know it, according to the light and grace He has endowed in us. The Holy Bible speaks of "milk" and "meat." God knows which is best for each of us....

In closing, a final thought: The Holy Scriptures is the total ANTIDOTE to "tower building," in the specific sense of the Tower of Babel....

Just some thoughts. Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts, DrewsMum!

597 posted on 05/17/2010 9:43:40 PM PDT by betty boop (Nil desperandum.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Placemarker ... God made us to operate via data received, thus we are oriented to the past, albeit recent past most of the time, but oriented to the past events we sense. There are episodes int he Bible which indicate that our sensing of the where/when of our universe is not even near complete, like the being who stood in one where/when while reaching over into the party central of the King in Babylon, to write a judgment on the wall; the being was in one where/when while the hand reached ‘back’/’over/into the where/when of Belshazzar [Daniel Chptr5]. And that is but one episode of several in the Bible pages! The Resurrection itself is an astonishing example of another connection to an existing where/when we cannot sense in our present state. BUT, God has promised His family will, eventually.


598 posted on 05/17/2010 9:43:47 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: boatbums
Just curious...does this “infallible doctrine” regarding the conjugal act also include “Natural Family Planning”?

Interesting stand the RCC takes on sex and family planning.

Sex is a no-no for priests, nuns, and Mary, (in spite of a decided lack of Scriptural evidence for those doctrines), and yet birth control and abortion are soundly condemned by the RCC.

It would be interesting to see how *Natural Family Planning* fits in all this.

599 posted on 05/17/2010 9:49:17 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; DrewsMum; allmendream; P-Marlowe; metmom
But it is important, in my opinion, for people to realize that every single mortal person suffers from the observer problem. Man regularly thinks he knows more than he possibly could ever know. Even his physical senses deceive him.

What a magnificent essay/post, dearest sister in Christ!

RE: the above italics: I suspect most folks nowadays don't realize how true this insight is. They never even think about it.

But what they often do think about is the idea that human knowledge has no limits....

This is manifestly untrue. But it's getting late, so I have to call it a night for now. Early day tomorrow....

Good night, dearest sister in Christ! And thank you once again for your outstanding essay/post!

600 posted on 05/17/2010 9:53:00 PM PDT by betty boop (Nil desperandum.)
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