Posted on 04/03/2010 9:09:05 PM PDT by pissant
ROME – On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.
The ultra-conservative society, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI last year, has yet to be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, because of its refusal to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
In 2007, in an effort to bring the traditionalist elements of the Church back into the fold, Benedict issued a “Motu Proprio” declaration allowing wider use of the 1962, pre-Vatican II Roman Missal containing this prayer, which was previously restricted to small groups. Three years ago only 30 Italian churches were affected by that decision, as opposed to the 118 that regularly use the liturgy today.
The word “conversion,” however, was not supposed to have been part of the title of this traditionalist Good Friday prayer. The official text, personally revised by the pope after Israel’s Chief Rabbinate expressed concerns regarding its content, was circulated in a note by Cardinal Bertone, theVatican’s secretary of state, in February 2008, bearing a new official title – “Oremus et pro Iudaeis,” or “Let us Pray for the Jews.” However, quite unexpectedly, that title has been changed to “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” in the brand new luxury re-edition of the missal currently flying off the shelves in Vatican bookstores.
(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...
The General Intercessions conclude the Liturgy of the Word. The ten intercessions cover these areas:
The example being discussed was a Jew who converts to Christianity. AFAIK, Christians don't believe in Sheol and according to a word search I did, it's not mentioned in the KJV.
If a Jew adopts Christian beliefs, then he must accept that there is only one way to escape eternal damnation, yes?
Your "standard Christian doctrine" is really fairly standard evangelical Protestant Christian doctrine. Catholics and Orthodox wouldn't agree that things are quite that simple.
You would agree with me (I hope) that the Old Testament prophets, patriarchs, and (good) kings like, e.g., King David were "pious Jews full of charity, love, and good works," right?
Christians believe that all of them are in heaven. For Catholics, they even have feast days on our calendars. (In the West, they're only optional, but in the East, they aren't.) There is, for instance, a "St. Daniel the Prophet Catholic Church" in suburban Chicago. I've been there.
So, right there, we have a class of Jews whom every Christian recognizes as being in heaven.
As for others ... ? It's not for us to say. Certainly, if someone dies loving God as best they know how, seeking the truth, and treating others with charity, we can hope for his salvation.
Whether someone like Gandhi would go to purgatory or hell
Anyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven eventually.
Given that Sheol is Scriptural, why wouldn't a Christian believe in it?
If a Jew adopts Christian beliefs, then he must accept that there is only one way to escape eternal damnation, yes?
Through Jesus Christ, yes.
But if you are ignorant of His message through life, it is not the same thing as consciously rejecting Him. Natural Law put it quite succinctly:
Loss of salvation requires a conscious rejection of Christ. This requires a knowledge of Christ. The innocence of invincible ignorance mitigates this. Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
Which is, in fact, the case.
As for you FReepers who think I need a different religion, kindly take yours and stuff it wherever you see fit. We’ve been fine for 5,000 years without YOU.
Such a loving attitude. I'm praying for you twice as hard now.
And I love you, too.
Speak for yourself. I'm a CATHOLIC first. If it came down to choosing the Church or America, I'd go with the Church.
And it will come to that, sooner or later.
All of us are saved the same way - through Jesus Christ. All men and women have *always* been saved through Jesus Christ. The Name is power, but the Lord, being G_d, can save without knowledge of the actual name. Remember, “Abraham believed G_d and it was counted as righteousness to him.” (Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6)
“...Speak for yourself. I’m a CATHOLIC first. ...”
That’s your choice, and all good for you.
But God put this country here, and you in it, for a reason. He didn’t put you in Rome, or in Caracas, or Bosnia, etc. Something to consider. Your purpose evidently is here - maybe to open someone’s eyes, save their life, change their life. Who knows. If being Catholic first serves that purpose for you, so be it.
No quarrel with either of you.
“...I have every right to pray for and witness to anyone my conscience tells me too. In public and in private...”
Sure, you have the right to do so...right up until the EXACT moment the other person says to you “I don’t want to hear it anymore.” That’s THEIR right too - to be left alone if they so desire. If they choose not to believe, that is their right. Then, you can do so privately for them, and ask God to open their eyes.
If someone asks me about my faith, I will gladly tell them. If they say “Enough!” Then that’s pretty clear.
Funny thing, this here 1st Amendment religious freedom to worship as we please that we have...it works both ways.
“...I do it out of love....”
Not everyone WANTS to be “loved”. And once again, that is their right.
And I said as much in my original post. I'm glad you agree with me.
I may have misread your post. But hey, no quarrel w/you, friend.
No offense taken or intended either. Have a great day and GO BUTLER!!
Well, my FRiend, before you get “bent out of shape” about the Catholics, lets “look at the whole story and not bits and pieces.”
Take a closer look to the Second Vatican Council and its intent. In this context, the following statement stands out:
“A deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, together with a recognition of a divinely given mission to Jews to witness to God’s faithful love, leads to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church,”
May the Lord Bless you. You are one of the chosen.
>>Catholics believe that, and we understand their belief. <<
No, most Catholics don’t.
I see a lot of uninformed people on this thread. Jewish and Catholic alike.
See post 134. It says this....
Take a closer look to the Second Vatican Council and its intent. In this context, the following statement stands out:
“A deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, together with a recognition of a divinely given mission to Jews to witness to God’s faithful love, leads to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church,”
(that was in the 60’s)
Modern Judaism and every form of Christianity (like all world religions) make mutually exclusive fact claims...that is each one makes statements of objective truth which contradict the other.
Jesus was either the Jewish Messiah (as Christianity has ALWAYS claimed...from the New Testament onward) or He is not—and hence should be ignored (or even supressed...if He was a blasphemer...). Polite “ecumenicism” is a lie—while we can respect each others tradition—both (modern) Judaism and Christianity cannot be equally correct—if the universe as created by God is coherent.
Therefore it is proper and good for Christians to pray for, and desire the conversion of Jews....and actually, equally proper for Jews to pray for AND EVEN SEEK THE CONVERSION TO JUDAISM of gentile Christians.
After all if Judaism is correct, than Christians are at best, mislead pagans, worshiping a false 3 faced God in a seriously blasphemous way... If Jews love their fellow man—AND they believe Judaism is objectively true, logically they should pray for, and seek the conversion of Christians. SO WHY IS IT THAT JEWS DO NOT PRAY FOR AND SEEK THE CONVERSION TO JUDAISM OF CHRISTIANS?
If however, Christianity is true, and Jews 2,000 years ago and since have rejected and missed their true Messiah, and the One God truly is known in 3 persons...than Jews above even all other persons, need the prayers of Jesus’ followers, that they may know, and love all of ours Messiah as well.
The universal religion for non-Jews is known as ‘The Seven Laws of the Children of Noah’. These are the prohibitions of idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, prohibited sexual relations, cruelty to animals, and a command to establish courts of justice. Jews were chosen to bear this message and its details.
The Jewish “Aleinu” prayer does indeed call for the conversion of all the earth to these principles.
Non-Jews need not become Jewish any more than every Christian need be a formal minister or priest.
The SSPX might want to ask the Ru'ach HaKodesh to illuminate Romans 11 for them.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Somehow the SSPX misses the fact that Yah'shua was, is and will always be a Jew.
He will come to rule an reign over the whole world from Jerusalem on the throne of King David,
during the seventh millennium (the seventh day; YHvH's day of rest)
Romans 11 where Paul discusses who is grafted into whom.
NAsbU Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off,
and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them
and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
NAsbU Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off
so that I might be grafted in."
Paul warns against the pride of a Gentile follower of Yah'shua.
NAsbU Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
NAsbU Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A Jew who comes to know the Jewish Messiah for their salvation
does not become a Christian,
They become a "called out one", a member of the Ekklesia.
They become a Messianic Jew.
The L-rd's name ( SHEM ) is not gee-zeus;
it is Yah'shua ( YHvH is my salvation )
NAsbU Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF YHvH WILL BE SAVED."
Which is why you must call on His Name for salvation.
See Exod. 15:2; 2 Sam. 23:5; Job 19:25 Ps. 18:2; 19:14; 62:1, 7; 118:14 Isa. 12:2; Isa 49:6; Isa 54:8
To worship what Jews think is 3 gods, or to worship a man as God, Jesus, is by Torah definition—understood by modern orthodox Judaism—idolatry and blasphemy—subject to the most severe censure.
Modern orthodox Judaism would logically seem to regard Muslims more following the Seven Laws than Christians... even though of course far(FAR) more Muslims persecute Jews today than Christians.
One would think unless Christians “convert” to something like Islam—or some form of unitarianism—they would be damned. And if Judaism itself is THE most enlightened way, even with a lower way for gentiles available... than love would dictate that you should pray that gentiles not only be obedient to the Seven Laws, but also convert to Judaism itself.
Think of Juaism and “Noahism” as the same religion with Judaism as priestly responsibilities. Not everyone need be a priest.
Islam is theologically closer to Noahism than Christianity. For this reason, I believe God allows Muslims rather than Christians to control the Temple Mount.
Because one or two generations of Christians have temporarily halted Jew-killing does not make them worthy of implicit trust.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.