The Beginning of the Reformation's End?

The Wall Street Journal ^ | 2/26/10 | Charlotte Hays

[marshmallow]

On a recent evening, about 60 people—ex-Episcopalians, curious Catholics and a smattering of earnest Episcopal priests in clerical collars—gathered downtown for an unusual liturgy: It was Evensong and Benediction, sung according to the Book of Divine Worship, an Anglican Use liturgical book still being prepared in Rome.

Beautiful evensongs are a signature of Protestant Episcopal worship. Benediction, which consists of hymns, canticles or litanies before the consecrated host on the altar, is a Catholic devotion. We were getting a blend of both at St. Mary Mother of God Church, lent for the occasion.

One former Episcopalian present confessed to having to choke back tears as the first plainsong strains of "Humbly I Adore Thee," the Anglican version of a hymn by St. Thomas Aquinas, floated down from the organ in the balcony. A convert to Catholicism, she could not believe she was sitting in a Catholic Church, hearing the words of her Anglican girlhood—and as part of an authorized, Roman Catholic liturgy.

And that was not the only miracle. Although the texts had been carefully vetted in Rome for theological points, the words being sung were written by Thomas Cranmer, King Henry VIII's architect of the English Reformation. "He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel," the congregation chanted, "as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever."

The language of this translation of the Magnificat, one of Christianity's two great evening canticles, is unfamiliar to many Episcopalians today, as it comes from earlier versions of their Book of Common Prayer. Yet a number of former Anglicans are eager to carry some of this liturgy with them when they swim the Tiber, as Episcopalians becoming Catholic often call the conversion. "I wonder why the phrase 'and there is no health in us' was omitted from the...................

[gitmo]

The Reformation cannot last.

It's flourished for 493 years. The United States is an infant in comparison.

[Cronos]

Lung is the terminology used in context to the relationships between the EAstern and Western Church

About the East-West schism, that was a schism, not a heresy -- at no point did the other think that the other was a heretical organisation, while the Orthodox will have no doubts in considering WOF heretical.

The Assyrian/Chaldean broke away post Chalcedon to a large extent due to Political compulsions -- they were int he Parthian empire and had just been persecuted by Khosrau (after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, the arch enemies of the PArthians). The Orientals broke away post Nicea due to a linguistic issues. Those have been overcome recently.

[Cronos]

JWs --> interesting about them in concentration camps. I need to read more about that. Thanks

[Cronos]

Not quite as insulting as the posts you did post like Nope. Biggest deception has come from the non-Catholic groups and "THE DECEPTION WITHIN NON-CATHOLIC RANKS RUNS WIDE AND DEEP

Quite arrogant swill, what?

[Marysecretary]

excellent post...

[Cronos]

Read the article, it says so nicely at the end

The service was conducted by Father Eric Bergman, a Yale Divinity School-educated former Episcopal clergyman who was ordained a Catholic priest in 2007

But Father Bergman not only predicts a mass movement toward Rome. He believes Anglican Use may mark the beginning of the end of the Reformation. There will be "a flourishing of this throughout the world," he says. "Wherever there are Anglicans, there will be people who want to enter Holy Mother Church." As he told a rapt audience at St. Mary's, "If we look at histories, heresies run themselves out after about 500 years. I believe we are seeing the last gasp of the Reformation in the mainline Protestant groups."

[Marysecretary]

As I recall, a long time back YOU asked ME to quit posting to you. What’s good for the goose...LOL.

[gitmo]

LOL

[Marysecretary]

Compared to you guys, I’m just an amateur.

[Judith Anne]

Think about what you’re saying, here. Since you brought up the past, from more than a year ago, let’s think about it.

Posters on open threads, as I was told, should expect unpleasant posts. I was told that if I didn’t want to see them, I should stick to the caucus threads.

What’s good for the goose, indeed, Mare.

[BroJoeK]

Cronos: "About the East-West schism, that was a schism, not a heresy -- at no point did the other think that the other was a heretical organisation,"

As I said, I don't have my history books handy, but seems to me the Great Schism also involved heresy, as is indicated in this summary:

"Some churches consider themselves as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: for instance, the Roman Catholic Church claims that title and considers the Eastern Orthodox Church to be in schism, while the Eastern Orthodox Church also claims that title and holds that the Catholic Church is schismatic and probably heretical; some Protestant Churches believe that they also represent the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and consider the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to be in error, while others do not expect a union of all Christian churches on earth."

Cronos: "The Assyrian/Chaldean broke away post Chalcedon..."

Not according to this:

"Almost the entire Egyptian population rejected the terms of the Council of Chalcedon and remained faithful to the native Egyptian Church (now known as the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria)..."

"The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria regards itself as having been misunderstood at the Council of Chalcedon. There was an opinion in the Church that viewed that perhaps the Council understood the Church of Alexandria correctly, but wanted to curtail the existing power of the Alexandrine Hierarch..."

"The Council's findings were rejected by many of the Christians on the fringes of the Byzantine Empire, including Egyptians, Syrians, Armenians, and others."

"Oriental Orthodoxy refers to the faith of those Eastern Christian Churches that recognize only three ecumenical councils — the First Council of Nicaea, the First Council of Constantinople and the Council of Ephesus. They rejected the dogmatic definitions of the Council of Chalcedon (451). Hence, these Oriental Orthodox Churches are also called Old Oriental Churches or Non-Chalcedonian Churches. These churches are generally not in communion with Eastern Orthodox Churches with whom they are in dialogue for a return to unity.[1]

"Despite the potentially confusing nomenclature (Oriental meaning eastern), Oriental Orthodox churches are distinct from those that are collectively referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Syriac Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[2] These six churches, while being in communion with each other, are hierarchically independent."

So Coptics did not "break away." They stayed true to their faith, and were were left behind by the Council of Chalcedon.

Furthermore, it was just as much a question of power-politics as Church doctrine. None of this, imho, has anything to do with valid versus heretical Christian doctrine.

[HossB86]

“No, actually it isn’t. The Church murdered exactly no one, ever. Also, the Church did not control who lived and who died.”

What? Now THAT’S bold. Very, very bold. You’d be well served to back up and reconsider the statement you just made.... let me help you a little bit.

I-N-Q-U-I-S-I-T-I-O-N

The Roman Catholic Church set up tribunals that tried and murdered “heretics.”

Nero lined the roads with Christians set on fire... history was repeated by the pope, once again, from Rome, when Christians were set afire, tortured, and otherwise martyred.

Hoss

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“What? Now THAT’S bold. Very, very bold.”

The truth always is. That’s why your post are just filled with pedantic myths.

“You’d be well served to back up and reconsider the statement you just made.... let me help you a little bit.”

From what you’ve shown so far you’re not able to help anyone with history.

“I-N-Q-U-I-S-I-T-I-O-N”

Let me help you: B-L-A-C-K L-E-G-E-N-D. I already no more about the inquisition than you ever will. Have you ever read a single book on the inquisition? Even one? Admit it. You haven’t read even one have you?

“The Roman Catholic Church set up tribunals that tried and murdered “heretics.””

Nope. No one was murdered by the Catholic Church or the inquisition EVER.

“Nero lined the roads with Christians set on fire...”

Actually, the story is that be set fire to Christians in his garden (as human torches) and in the circus when crowds bored with their crucifixion.

“history was repeated by the pope, once again, from Rome, when Christians were set afire, tortured, and otherwise martyred.”

Not by the pope they weren’t and they weren’t martyrs.

“Hoss”

Whatever you say Little Joe. Just remember, you failed again. And you really have never read a single book on the inquisition, right?

[Cronos]

Well, the question was whether JW's are Christian, not whether they are good people. Gandhi was a good person, quite Christian in attitudes and peacefullness, but he was not Christian

JWs believe that Jesus is not divine and He is just a creature and it was through him, as an agent, that God created everything else. They believe that in heaven, Jesus is now known as Michael (taken from Jude 9, Daniel 10:13 and 12:1 and Revelation 12:7-8 which imo is quite far-fetched)

The JWs are just Arianism reborn in a sola scriptura world. Because we didn't learn from our history we see that what Athanasius battled has re-appeared.

The Arians denied the term Theotokos because they believed that Mary could not be described as Mother of God for the simple reason that Jesus was not 'God the Son' but 'the Son of God.' The Trinity doctrine these Arians and the JWs beleive is not a part of Hebrewbelief and is not taught in the bible

This is completely different from the Christian viewpoint of Christ. They deny that Jesus was raised in the flexh and believe that his "fleshly body" was destroyed by Jehovah God. They get aroudn Thomas by saying that He used a body with wound holes??!!!

This stems due to their own translation of the bible The New World Translation -- and THIS is a marvellous example of sola scriptura gone wild with the wrong scriptura. This translation was made between 1950 and 1961 in several parts, beginning with the New Testament.

The text of this is a transliteration of KJV and other Protestant versions to fit the JW's theological presumptions.

You can see this in how they changed the words. e.g. NWT says for John 1:1 The word was A god, then Colossians 1:15-17 has been changed to read By means of him all things were created -- which leaves out the Greek words that Jesus created all things, but the JW's insert the word other fou times into the text

They translate the Greek word kyrios (Lord) as Jehovah, despite the fact that the word Jehovah is never used by any New Testament author, but cleverly they don't translate this in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and Revelation 22:21 (where Jesus is referred to as Kyrios) because that would say that Jesus was Jehovah!

They also use the term "Jehovah" whereas if you read any Jewish text they agree that that title is wrong and never used by the Jews (they prefer Yahweh)

JWs also deny that our souls are immortal. They don't believe in Hell either

Finally, they take the Calvinist idea of the "elite elect" to it's ultimate by saying that in the end only 144,000 will rule over all of us.

[Cronos]

Compared to you guys, I’m just an amateur.

Don't worry -- The Church doesn't believe in the Calvinist idea of an "elite elect" -- you too can be saved. Come, join Christ's Church -- The Church which has been spreading God's word for 2000 years while the heresies have all died away. Come, accept Christ, not some pastor.

[Cronos]

1. No, schism does not involve heresy. Heresy is treated differently.
2. you're right about the Assyrians -- I miswrote Chalcedon for Ephesus and Nicea for Chalcedon.
3. The Coptics DID break away in terms of a schism --> it was not power-politics, if you read the details of the councils the issue was over the nature of God -- which was to combat serious HERESIEs like Gnosticism or Arianism which denied the Godhood of Christi or said Jesus was a "higher" God from Yahweh who was just a yabbaloath (a demiurge). The council was rejected because of it's terms of homousis and other esoteric terms -- we orthodox thought they meant that Jesus wasn't 1005 man and 100% God, but they actually did and didn't agree with the language (why? Perhaps Greek was losing tis' linguage franca status among Armenians, Ethiopians (dunno why Copts, but hmmm...))

[Cronos]

I know, so the Protestant groups formed in the 1500s are, as the article says “If we look at histories, heresies run themselves out after about 500 years. I believe we are seeing the last gasp of the Reformation in the mainline Protestant groups.” — the WOF Pentecostals were formed in the early 1900s, but they’ll be dead in 500 years, ditto for all the other errors

[Poe White Trash]

...while the heresies have all died away.

What? The Church of Rome is no more?

BTW, anyone who thinks of "swimming the Tiber" should think twice -- the water is quite polluted.

Rome debates mystery of dead fish in Tiber River

[Cronos]

Which Church are you referring to? St. Peters, ST John de Laterano or the little Methodist chapel in Langotevere? Or perhaps you mean the Episcopalian one outside the gates? Yes, that latter heresy is dying

Your own particular heresy will die away soon, don't worry -- whichever "pastor" driven man-made religion it is, it will last as long as Gnosticism or Manicheanism. As the article says -- give it about 500 years and then it dies.

And while the heresies have all died away, The Church, the One Catholic and Apostolic Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian) survives as it always does, with God's grace.

Come, join Christ's Church, accept Christ and not your pastor with his "little god's" philosophy.

[Cronos]

Oh, and of course, typical non-Church, confusing the material terms with spiritual. Leave behind the material, man-made group that you belong to and accept Christ in Christ’s Church. Come, be saved and have fellowship with Christ in Christ’s Church. Don’t stay away from God.