Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Christ instituted only 1 church..formally..specifically..visible one.

CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

[Salvation]

Catholic Biblical Apologetics

Apologetics without apology!

What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

• To present the biblical basis for the origin and development of the Roman Catholic Church.
• To present the development of the canon of Scripture and evolution of biblical teaching in the Church.
• To understand the role of paradosis/tradition in the oral transmission of revelation.
• To study the Council of Jerusalem, described in the 15^th chapter of The Acts of the Apostles and its role in the development of doctrine in the conciliar movement in the Church.
• To understand the revelation, doctrinal development and practice of the sacramental life in the history of the Church.
• To study the role of the Holy Spirit as teaching authority in the Church.
• To study the revelation and development of hierarchical authority in the Church.
• To understand the hierarchy of truths in the Church as well as the role of private devotion and personal growth in holiness.

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

 

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18

"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)

Jn 10:16

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jn 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

Jn 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Mt 28: 19

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

Mk 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

[narses]

“NOTE: Protestant churches do not recognize the headship of the Pope, but instead, point to Christ as the Head of the Church.”

As they flout the rules God gave us and scorn unity. Odd stuff.

[LiteKeeper]

What rules would those be?

[narses]

Unity for one. Charity for another. The Bread of Life as another.

[LiteKeeper]

I fail to see what that has to do with how the Church is organized.

[narses]

Unity confuses you? Why?

[LiteKeeper]

Unity is an operational principle for the universal church. How does that then define the RCC as the True Church?

[narses]

How does schism, disunity of doctrine and discipline (hallmarks of the Lutherian heretical schismatics) represent Christ’s Will?

Look ye to the Anglican community and what they suffer today. Or the Lutheran’s. Ad nauseam.

[LiteKeeper]

You are confusing an operational issue with an organizational one.

But there is a deeper issue: Protestants are not going to unite with those they believe are theologically in error. It is the right understanding of God, Christ, and the Scriptures, which teach us, not unity for unity sake.

If you will forgive the analogy, the Democrats call bipartisanship agreement with their line of thinking. Bipartisanship is when the two sides have an open discussion, and work out an agreement. There is much in Roman Catholic theology that is unacceptable to Protestants...and there will be no "unity" if those differences can't be work out. And claiming to be the only True Church will not help those discussions.

[narses]

” Protestants are not going to unite with those they believe are theologically in error. “

Since every one of them claims the right to decide what Scripture means and what God wants, you get YOPIOS and a thousand schismatic splinter pseudo-Churches. Nice.

Opposing that is the 2,000+ year old Church Christ founded.

[narses]

Look ye to the Anglican community and what they suffer today. Or the Lutheran’s. Ad nauseam.

[LiteKeeper]

If you haven't looked lately, there is dissension in the RCC as well. Look at the American Bishops...not in complete agreement with the Papacy.

And where is it written in Scripture that only a select few are capable of interpreting Scripture? If the truth be known, there is a tremendous amount of agreement on the "essentials" of the faith...most of the disagreement is found in the styles of worship, and the organization of the church. And those are not necessary for entrance into the Kingdom of God. There is broad agreement with the words of Jesus when He tells Nicodemus "You must be born again", and the words of Paul when he says that we are "saved by grace...not works."

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Sorry I took so long to answer, It was our son in laws birthday. Lot of friends and relatives to talk with. Got home way to late. Yesterday was filled with commitments as well. Won't even talk about today. Thanks for the interchange. BVB

He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Sure he did. Our sins effect the community at large. Tiger Woods, by virtue of his golf skills, has received media attention making him a public figure. As such, his adultery touches the lives of those who benefit from his charitable foundations. Donors who may have been scandalized by his behavior, may choose not to contribute. Those dependent on the donations are then effected. The same is true in our own lives. When you lie, you not only sin but that sin effects others around you.

I stand by my previous post. There are only two entities who can forgive Tiger for his sin of adultery, God the Father and Tiger's wife. They are the only two the sin was committed against. I agree that our sins effect the community at large. So does God in His infinite wisdom. That is why He forbids these actions. 

The people you mentioned have placed their trust in a man and deserve what ever that trust brings, good or bad. Put your trust in God only. That should be the lesson here. You reap what you sow.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

That was true in the Old Testament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Penance and in so doing, provided a means for us to have our sins forgiven by God.

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass? 

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

You begin with Matthew 18:21, which is a continuation of what I posted. "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

You are still missing the point. Peter asked Jesus how many times he must he forgive a brother who sins against him. It has nothing to do with forgiving a mans sins against God for God much less passing that power on to anyone. Forgiving sins against us when asked is not a power, it is a command. If you don't forgive your brother his sins against you, God cannot forgive your sins against Him.

Jesus thinks this is so important, He included it in the LORD'S prayer as a reminder, Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Do you believe you have a the ability to forgive those sins?

I am surprised you didn't give the preceding verses as proof of church hierarchy as others have.

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

At this stage it is brother to brother.

¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^[b]

^{At this stage it is you and two or more brothers. If he hears you and a couple brothers, you have gained a brother.}

¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.

At this point it is the whole group you meet with. If he hears you and the church, you have gained a brother.

But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

At this point you have done all you can do to gain your brother and have left nothing bound on your account. At no time was there a need for an officer of the church to do anything more than any other brother in the church.
 

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.

Again you claim this was just the apostles. Scripture states disciples and no amount. This is just another way of telling them they have to forgive/loose the sins when asked by a brother their own sins are bond it heaven and cannot be forgiven.

God did not send Jesus to forgive sins. Jesus had the power to forgive sins against Him because He was born without a curse. He had to forgive sins. The principle of binding and loosing applied to Him as it does to us. If He didn't forgive/loose sins on earth they would have been bound in heaven. He could not have been the perfect lamb.   

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

120, 12, 200 ... what difference does that make? The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and the 120 in the Upper Room gave them the confidence and vision to go forth and preach all they had learned from Jesus. Their first task, under the presidency of Peter, was to agree on the minimum organization necessary to undertake their world mission, and the Acts of the Apostles reveals to us that from the very beginning the Church of God enjoyed the good order that came from a right understanding of the mind of Jesus.

120, 12, 200 ...What difference does this make? It proves that the 12 were not as special as they have to be for your belief system to have any validity. This proves it doesn't. If you read acts without the blinders of your church, you will see that they functioned with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised His Father would send as a helper.

You still haven't answered why Peter would say this in Acts 4 if he is the rock the church is built on: ⁸ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: ⁹ If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, ¹⁰ let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. ¹¹ This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’^{[a] 12} Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

I believe as Peter and the Spirit States, Christ is the stone His church is built on. Peter states the same in 1 Peter 2

1 Peter 2

 ¹ Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, ² as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,^{[a] 3} if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People

   
⁴ Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, ⁵ you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ⁶ Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,


      “ Behold, I lay in Zion
      A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
      And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”<sup>[b]

7</sup> Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,^[c]


      “ The stone which the builders rejected
      Has become the chief cornerstone,”^[d]
 

 ⁸ and


      “ A stone of stumbling
      And a rock of offense.”^[e]
 

   They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
⁹ But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; ¹⁰ who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The twelve apostles were the supreme authority in virtue of being the eyewitnesses specially selected by Jesus to control the development of the Church. Their Church was a living organism entirely independent of the theocratic state of Judaism and responsible to no one but God himself. While reverencing the Temple of God on account of its past associations, they were obliged to set up their own house churches (for example, the church in the house of John Mark's mother), where they were able to celebrate the Eucharistic rite of "the breaking of the bread" bequeathed to them by Jesus.

If they were the supreme authority, not led by the Holy Spirit, it is a man made church you are a member of.

All the churches were in peoples homes and they ate meals. The breaking of bread was the same as when Christ broke the bread at the last supper and passed it around. He said; "When you do this remember it is my body". We should do the same each time we eat to remember what He did for us. 

This, as well as their insistence on exact adherence to their teaching about him, led to the immediate emergence of a fellowship (based on baptism into Christ) that distinguished them from all other citizens of Jerusalem. Jesus himself, together with his Father and his Holy Spirit--the one Trinitarian God--was now the object of worship in the apostolic community of the Church of Jerusalem. But this "foreign body" of followers of Jesus had to justify its existence in the face of the fierce hostility of the unconverted high priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, Levites, and priests. ????? Adherence to their teaching not the Holy Spirit? Hmmmm

I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God.

The priesthood is scriptural but that is a different discussion. For now, you are correct in one respect. We can and ought to go directly to God through Jesus Christ in repentance, prayer, and offering our spiritual sacrifices in union with him. But this is not an either/or proposition. We do not go either to God or to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church and the Bible say we do both. For example, Romans 12:1–2 says, "I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Here we see Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, "royal priesthood" before God and offer spiritual sacrifices directly to him. We Catholics agree that all Christians can and should do just that. But, analogous to what we see in the Old Testament, we also see a special group of men called by Christ to a ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. In fact, apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1) function as priests in the New Testament.

The priesthood is scriptural? I ask again to review Hebrews, especially 7-8-9-10. It explains why there is no longer a need for a earthly sanctuary.

 

Hebrews 9

The Earthly Sanctuary

 ¹ Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. ² For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; ³ and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, ⁴ which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; ⁵ and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Limitations of the Earthly Service

   
⁶ Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. ⁷ But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; ⁸ the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. ⁹ It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— ¹⁰ concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The Heavenly Sanctuary

   
¹¹ But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,^[a] with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. ¹² Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. ¹³ For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, ¹⁴ how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ¹⁵ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The Mediator’s Death Necessary

   
¹⁶ For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. ¹⁷ For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. ¹⁸ Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. ¹⁹ For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, ²⁰ saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”^{[b] 21} Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. ²² And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice

   
²³ Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. ²⁴ For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; ²⁵ not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— ²⁶ He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. ²⁷ And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, ²⁸ so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Once again, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men (John 20:21–23). Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, "If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ". Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: "For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak".

The scriptures you list are available to all of us, not just a select few. I do find it interesting for you to list Bishops, 1 Tim 3:1. Do you not call the Pope the Bishop of Rome?

Lets see what that scripture says is the qualification to be a Bishop.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

 ¹ This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,^[a] he desires a good work. ² A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; ³ not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,^[b] but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; ⁴ one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence ⁵ (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); ⁶ not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. ⁷ Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Looks to me that you have an unscriptural Pope by that description. What say you?

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work.

By that logic, I can go out tomorrow and kill anyone I choose, because God has already forgiven me.

Yes you can if at some point you truly repented and asked forgiveness. God knows your heart and if you are truly sorry. Christ asked His Father to forgive those who executed Him. 
 

Sorry I took so long to answer, It was our son in laws birthday. Lot of friends and relatives to talk with. Got home way to late. Yesterday was filled with commitments as well. Won't even talk about today. Thanks for the interchange. BVB

He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Sure he did. Our sins effect the community at large. Tiger Woods, by virtue of his golf skills, has received media attention making him a public figure. As such, his adultery touches the lives of those who benefit from his charitable foundations. Donors who may have been scandalized by his behavior, may choose not to contribute. Those dependent on the donations are then effected. The same is true in our own lives. When you lie, you not only sin but that sin effects others around you.

I stand by my previous post. There are only two entities who can forgive Tiger for his sin of adultery, God the Father and Tiger's wife. They are the only two the sin was committed against. I agree that our sins effect the community at large. So does God in His infinite wisdom. That is why He forbids these actions. 

The people you mentioned have placed their trust in a man and deserve what ever that trust brings, good or bad. Put your trust in God only. That should be the lesson here. You reap what you sow.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

That was true in the Old Testament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Penance and in so doing, provided a means for us to have our sins forgiven by God.

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass? 

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

You begin with Matthew 18:21, which is a continuation of what I posted. "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

You are still missing the point. Peter asked Jesus how many times he must he forgive a brother who sins against him. It has nothing to do with forgiving a mans sins against God for God much less passing that power on to anyone. Forgiving sins against us when asked is not a power, it is a command. If you don't forgive your brother his sins against you, God cannot forgive your sins against Him.

Jesus thinks this is so important, He included it in the LORD'S prayer as a reminder, Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Do you believe you have a the ability to forgive those sins?

I am surprised you didn't give the preceding verses as proof of church hierarchy as others have.

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

At this stage it is brother to brother.

¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^[b]

^{At this stage it is you and two or more brothers. If he hears you and a couple brothers, you have gained a brother.}

¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.

At this point it is the whole group you meet with. If he hears you and the church, you have gained a brother.

But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

At this point you have done all you can do to gain your brother and have left nothing bound on your account. At no time was there a need for an officer of the church to do anything more than any other brother in the church.
 

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.

Again you claim this was just the apostles. Scripture states disciples and no amount. This is just another way of telling them they have to forgive/loose the sins when asked by a brother their own sins are bond it heaven and cannot be forgiven.

God did not send Jesus to forgive sins. Jesus had the power to forgive sins against Him because He was born without a curse. He had to forgive sins. The principle of binding and loosing applied to Him as it does to us. If He didn't forgive/loose sins on earth they would have been bound in heaven. He could not have been the perfect lamb.   

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

120, 12, 200 ... what difference does that make? The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and the 120 in the Upper Room gave them the confidence and vision to go forth and preach all they had learned from Jesus. Their first task, under the presidency of Peter, was to agree on the minimum organization necessary to undertake their world mission, and the Acts of the Apostles reveals to us that from the very beginning the Church of God enjoyed the good order that came from a right understanding of the mind of Jesus.

120, 12, 200 ...What difference does this make? It proves that the 12 were not as special as they have to be for your belief system to have any validity. This proves it doesn't. If you read acts without the blinders of your church, you will see that they functioned with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised His Father would send as a helper.

You still haven't answered why Peter would say this in Acts 4 if he is the rock the church is built on: ⁸ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: ⁹ If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, ¹⁰ let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. ¹¹ This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’^{[a] 12} Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

I believe as Peter and the Spirit States, Christ is the stone His church is built on. Peter states the same in 1 Peter 2

1 Peter 2

 ¹ Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, ² as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,^{[a] 3} if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People

   
⁴ Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, ⁵ you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ⁶ Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,


      “ Behold, I lay in Zion
      A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
      And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”<sup>[b]

7</sup> Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,^[c]


      “ The stone which the builders rejected
      Has become the chief cornerstone,”^[d]
 

 ⁸ and


      “ A stone of stumbling
      And a rock of offense.”^[e]
 

   They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
⁹ But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; ¹⁰ who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The twelve apostles were the supreme authority in virtue of being the eyewitnesses specially selected by Jesus to control the development of the Church. Their Church was a living organism entirely independent of the theocratic state of Judaism and responsible to no one but God himself. While reverencing the Temple of God on account of its past associations, they were obliged to set up their own house churches (for example, the church in the house of John Mark's mother), where they were able to celebrate the Eucharistic rite of "the breaking of the bread" bequeathed to them by Jesus.

If they were the supreme authority, not led by the Holy Spirit, it is a man made church you are a member of.

All the churches were in peoples homes and they ate meals. The breaking of bread was the same as when Christ broke the bread at the last supper and passed it around. He said; "When you do this remember it is my body". We should do the same each time we eat to remember what He did for us. 

This, as well as their insistence on exact adherence to their teaching about him, led to the immediate emergence of a fellowship (based on baptism into Christ) that distinguished them from all other citizens of Jerusalem. Jesus himself, together with his Father and his Holy Spirit--the one Trinitarian God--was now the object of worship in the apostolic community of the Church of Jerusalem. But this "foreign body" of followers of Jesus had to justify its existence in the face of the fierce hostility of the unconverted high priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, Levites, and priests. ????? Adherence to their teaching not the Holy Spirit? Hmmmm

I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God.

The priesthood is scriptural but that is a different discussion. For now, you are correct in one respect. We can and ought to go directly to God through Jesus Christ in repentance, prayer, and offering our spiritual sacrifices in union with him. But this is not an either/or proposition. We do not go either to God or to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church and the Bible say we do both. For example, Romans 12:1–2 says, "I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Here we see Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, "royal priesthood" before God and offer spiritual sacrifices directly to him. We Catholics agree that all Christians can and should do just that. But, analogous to what we see in the Old Testament, we also see a special group of men called by Christ to a ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. In fact, apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1) function as priests in the New Testament.

The priesthood is scriptural? I ask again to review Hebrews, especially 7-8-9-10. It explains why there is no longer a need for a earthly sanctuary.

 

Hebrews 9

The Earthly Sanctuary

 ¹ Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. ² For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; ³ and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, ⁴ which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; ⁵ and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Limitations of the Earthly Service

   
⁶ Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. ⁷ But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; ⁸ the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. ⁹ It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— ¹⁰ concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The Heavenly Sanctuary

   
¹¹ But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,^[a] with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. ¹² Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. ¹³ For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, ¹⁴ how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ¹⁵ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The Mediator’s Death Necessary

   
¹⁶ For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. ¹⁷ For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. ¹⁸ Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. ¹⁹ For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, ²⁰ saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”^{[b] 21} Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. ²² And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice

   
²³ Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. ²⁴ For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; ²⁵ not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— ²⁶ He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. ²⁷ And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, ²⁸ so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Once again, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men (John 20:21–23). Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, "If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ". Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: "For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak".

The scriptures you list are available to all of us, not just a select few. I do find it interesting for you to list Bishops, 1 Tim 3:1. Do you not call the Pope the Bishop of Rome?

Lets see what that scripture says is the qualification to be a Bishop.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

 ¹ This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,^[a] he desires a good work. ² A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; ³ not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,^[b] but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; ⁴ one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence ⁵ (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); ⁶ not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. ⁷ Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Looks to me that you have an unscriptural Pope by that description. What say you?

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work.

By that logic, I can go out tomorrow and kill anyone I choose, because God has already forgiven me.

Yes you can if at some point you truly repented and asked forgiveness. God knows your heart and if you are truly sorry. Christ asked His Father to forgive those who executed Him. 
 

[NYer]

I won't have time to read through your lengthy response until much later today. However, I did want to comment on this. You wrote:

You are still missing the point. Peter asked Jesus how many times he must he forgive a brother who sins against him. It has nothing to do with forgiving a mans sins against God for God much less passing that power on to anyone. Forgiving sins against us when asked is not a power, it is a command. If you don't forgive your brother his sins against you, God cannot forgive your sins against Him.

I didn't comment on it because that is a given. Of course we must forgive our brothers sins. Jesus forgave his executioners from the cross; who are we to do otherwise.

The biggest point of contention between Catholics and Protestants is their misunderstanding of the Sacrament of Penance; hence, the emphasis in my previous response.

[NYer]

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

I am a cradle Catholic and could describe it to you through that lens; instead, I would prefer to post the reaction of Dr. Scott Hahn. Scott received his Bachelor of Arts degree with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy and Economics from Grove City College, Pennsylvania, in 1979, his Masters of Divinity from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in 1982, and his Ph.D. in Biblical Theology from Marquette University in 1995. Scott has ten years of youth and pastoral ministry experience in Protestant congregations (in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Massachusetts, Kansas and Virginia) and is a former Professor of Theology at Chesapeake Theological Seminary. He was ordained in 1982 at Trinity Presbyterian Church in Fairfax, Virginia. Scott, who once vigorously attacked the Catholic Faith was shocked to discover the ineffability and scripturally warranted correctness of the Catholic Church. The more Scott studied the Bible, the more serious questions arose in his mind about such issues as sin and redemption, the nature of the Church, the meaning of the Last Supper, Scriptural authority and revelation. Scott decided to attend a RC Mass (with bible in hand). Here is his reaction.

The second thing that happened was when I quietly slipped into the basement chapel down at Marquette, Gesu. They were having a noon Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50, 60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed. Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen it before.

The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service. But their prayers were soaked with Biblical language and phrases from Isaiah and Ezekiel. I sat there saying, "Man, stop the show, let me explain your prayers. That's Zechariah; that's Ezekiel. Wow! It's like the Bible coming to life and dancing out on the center stage and saying, "This is where I belong."

Then the Liturgy of the Eucharist began. I watched and listened as the priest pronounced the words of consecration and elevated the host. And I confess, the last drop of doubt drained away at that moment. I looked and said, "My Lord and my God." As the people began going forward to receive communion, I literally began to drool, "Lord, I want you. I want communion more fully with you. You've come into my heart. You're my personal Savior and Lord, but now I think You want to come onto my tongue and into my stomach, and into my body as well as my soul until this communion is complete."

And as soon as it began, it was over. People stuck around for a minute or two for thanksgiving and then left. And eventually, I just walked out and wondered, what have I done? But the next day I was back, and the next, and the next.

You can read the entire story here.

The majority of us Catholics have experienced the Mass since infancy. It is not something on which we focus, much less invest time studying. That is most unfortunate because at the Mass, Heaven and earth meet. One of the best descriptions I have ever found is this.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - a Primer for Clueless Catholics. It is in multiple parts so you will have to click on each one to follow the the article.

I look forward to your response to my question.

[Salvavida]

I can’t believe missed the obvious.

“This rock” is THE SPECIFIC reference to Jesus being the MESSIAH (the Christ). It wasnt about Peter— Peter was correct in answering who Jesus was: as opposed to others who were saying other things (Elijah,etc).

The fact that Jesus Christ would be the one who builds the church, himself being the “chief cornerstone”, was a mystery in the O.T., but now it is fulfilled in Him.

Read Ephesians 1-3 S L O W L Y.

[JPII Be Not Afraid]

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Pretty sure he is talking to Peter being the rock to build on. I guess you can interpret it however you want, but I will stick with the 2000 year old interpretation given by Jesus Himself.

If you do not believe the Catholic Church was the church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, how can you then use the Holy Bible at all. If the Church can't be trusted in matters of faith, then you can not rely on the Bible to refute the same Catholic Church that gave it to you.

You really need to study your own faith's beginnings, when it began and why. Unless you are Roman Catholic, your faith teachings were started by someone other the Jesus. They broke away from the Roman Catholic Church at least 500 years ago. Do you really believe the Holy Spirit taught falsely for 1500 years, until Luther came along. Study the early church fathers in relationship to what they believed. I think you will be surprised at what you will learn.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

[NYer]

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified, died and was resurrected by the Father.

Thank you! Sounds like you also subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches.

??? Whoever told you that about the Catholic Church is absolutely wrong. Christ did not leave us orphans. Rather, He promised he would be with us to the end of the world (Mt 28:20) through the Church He established.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

Was this a trinitarian baptism? John 3:3,5

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk.

Can you be more specific? Perhaps you can cite an example of what you mean.

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

Mary is often a major obstacle in any faith discussion. Suffice it to say that Mary is the Mother of God. The relationship between mother and son is very strong. Mary leads all men to her Son. An excellent example of this is the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe. This appearance was very important to the history of our continent. You see, the Aztec Indians and the Spaniards were on the brink of war. The Aztec Indians' culture and religion were very different from the Spaniards. They worshipped gods, to whom they would offer human sacrifices, often killing 50,000 people a year. The Spaniards, who were Catholic, were naturally disgusted by this. But they were cruel to the Aztecs too, treating them like animals and sometimes killing them for no reason. If a war had occurred, it would have been very brutal and the Spaniards and Christianity would have been totally wiped out.

Mary's appearance changed everything, however. It helped the Indians to embrace Christianity and it helped the Spaniards to treat the Indians with respect and as human beings. In the course of seven years, 6,000,000 Indians converted to the Catholic faith. This was the biggest conversion in the history of the Church! Mary's appearance also put an end to the worship of stone gods and the ritual of human sacrifice.

Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession. We pray for Mary's help today to bring an end to the human sacrifice of God's children through abortion and to convert non-believers. Our Lady of Guadalupe is also called the Patroness of the Unborn.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.

The Scriptural basis for the Catholic faith is this: Jesus said, Jn 10:11 “I am the good shepherd.” He promised His apostles continuing guidance,Jn 16:12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth….” The Good Shepherd established His vicar on earth by directing Peter, Jn 21:15 “Feed My lambs … Tend My sheep … Feed My sheep,” and promised, Lk 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me.” Jesus gave His apostles a worldwide mission, hence successors, with the command: Mt 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…” He guaranteed the teaching of the apostles and their successors, Mt 28:20 “I am with you always.” The apostles’ authority to appoint successors, and the successors’ to appoint other successors, is clear from Paul’s letter to Titus, 1:5 “This is why I left you in Crete, that you might … appoint elders in every town as I directed you … For a bishop, as God’s steward, must … hold firm to the sure word as taught.” The apostles enrolled Matthias Acts 1:25 to replace Judas and appointed deacons Acts 6:6 as assistants. The descended Holy Spirit immediately highlighted the Church’s worldwide mission; Peter and the other apostles spoke in their own language to the devout Jews of Jerusalem who had come from every nation under heaven, yet each Jew heard in his own native language. Acts 2:7 “And they were amazed and wondered, saying, ’Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language’”

According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).