[NYer]

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

I am a cradle Catholic and could describe it to you through that lens; instead, I would prefer to post the reaction of Dr. Scott Hahn. Scott received his Bachelor of Arts degree with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy and Economics from Grove City College, Pennsylvania, in 1979, his Masters of Divinity from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in 1982, and his Ph.D. in Biblical Theology from Marquette University in 1995. Scott has ten years of youth and pastoral ministry experience in Protestant congregations (in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Massachusetts, Kansas and Virginia) and is a former Professor of Theology at Chesapeake Theological Seminary. He was ordained in 1982 at Trinity Presbyterian Church in Fairfax, Virginia. Scott, who once vigorously attacked the Catholic Faith was shocked to discover the ineffability and scripturally warranted correctness of the Catholic Church. The more Scott studied the Bible, the more serious questions arose in his mind about such issues as sin and redemption, the nature of the Church, the meaning of the Last Supper, Scriptural authority and revelation. Scott decided to attend a RC Mass (with bible in hand). Here is his reaction.

The second thing that happened was when I quietly slipped into the basement chapel down at Marquette, Gesu. They were having a noon Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50, 60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed. Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen it before.

The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service. But their prayers were soaked with Biblical language and phrases from Isaiah and Ezekiel. I sat there saying, "Man, stop the show, let me explain your prayers. That's Zechariah; that's Ezekiel. Wow! It's like the Bible coming to life and dancing out on the center stage and saying, "This is where I belong."

Then the Liturgy of the Eucharist began. I watched and listened as the priest pronounced the words of consecration and elevated the host. And I confess, the last drop of doubt drained away at that moment. I looked and said, "My Lord and my God." As the people began going forward to receive communion, I literally began to drool, "Lord, I want you. I want communion more fully with you. You've come into my heart. You're my personal Savior and Lord, but now I think You want to come onto my tongue and into my stomach, and into my body as well as my soul until this communion is complete."

And as soon as it began, it was over. People stuck around for a minute or two for thanksgiving and then left. And eventually, I just walked out and wondered, what have I done? But the next day I was back, and the next, and the next.

You can read the entire story here.

The majority of us Catholics have experienced the Mass since infancy. It is not something on which we focus, much less invest time studying. That is most unfortunate because at the Mass, Heaven and earth meet. One of the best descriptions I have ever found is this.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - a Primer for Clueless Catholics. It is in multiple parts so you will have to click on each one to follow the the article.

I look forward to your response to my question.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB