[Bobsvainbabblings]

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

Well Bob, I'm home from work and will attempt to address some of your questions/comments. But first, I would like to ask you a question. You already know that I am a Catholic. I have been on FR long enough to recognize that some freepers are sincerely interested in understanding the Catholic faith, whereas others use these posts as a means to attack the Catholic faith. It would be most appreciated if you would post the christian denomination to which you subscribe. Thank you.

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified,  died and was resurrected by the Father. Our salvation is assured through His sacrifice as promised by Him and His Father if we except that truth and the fact that we are lost if we don't.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches. He gave us the same Spirit He gave at Pentecost for guidance.

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk. 

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

 Mary only had to be a virgin until Christ's birth to ensure He was born without the sin nature. The sin nature is only passed through the father. EX 20:5 and 34:6-7;

^{EX 34:6} And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, ⁷ keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

The virgin birth is the only thing that scripturally effected Christ's earthly mission. Whether Mary was sinless, a product of a immaculate conception herself, remained a virgin, caught up to heaven or any other things attributed to her have no consequence on my salvation or yours. If it did, we would have learned those facts from Jesus, the Apostles or other scripture. Not from men generations after the fact.

I think too many people look at the Gospel, The Good News, and only think redemption. While I agree spiritual life and death are the prime focus, we pass over the other benefits.  The Old testament only allowed an earthly high priest to have communion or conversation with God in the earthly sanctuary. The people had no access to God themselves.

The New Testament High Priest, Christ, has His sanctuary in heaven. All saints/believers have access to our God directly through that High Priest.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.   

That said, let's take a look at one of your questions. You posted:

Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?   

Thank you for the answer but it did not address the question I asked. I made the point that God was extremely thorough establishing the earthly Old Testament Levitictal Priesthood with Aaron and his successors. Here is the question in context; 

God used approximately 65 chapters spanning 3 books of the Old Testament describing an earthly priesthood and their duties. If  you or I could travel back and watch Aaron and his sons with those scriptures, we could follow their every move. Can you show me scripture which explains what goes on at the Vatican if I were to attend a Mass?

My point to you, or your fellow Catholics, is that you should be able to show a little more scriptural bases for the New Testament priesthood of Peter than Christ changing Peter's name and asking him three times to feed His sheep.

We are all given the power to forgive sins, the power to bind and loose and the Keys to Heaven. 

With that said, I will rephrase the question. If I had both the Old and New Testaments as reference, could I find scripture to guide me through a Catholic Mass as I could through a service conducted by Aaron?  If administered by the Pope, how would I know he is the Vicar of Christ as claimed?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

[NYer]

My wife and I are members of a non-denominational Church which we feel is scripturally based. Those principles include Christ being born of a virgin, was crucified, died and was resurrected by the Father.

Thank you! Sounds like you also subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

He didn't leave us alone as The Catholic Church teaches.

??? Whoever told you that about the Catholic Church is absolutely wrong. Christ did not leave us orphans. Rather, He promised he would be with us to the end of the world (Mt 28:20) through the Church He established.

We received a new life when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and are now adopted brothers and sisters of Christ with God as our Father.

Was this a trinitarian baptism? John 3:3,5

My only concern with Catholics is they expend to much energy and time on things that are either unscriptural or have no value concerning our Salvation or Christian walk.

Can you be more specific? Perhaps you can cite an example of what you mean.

We both know there are constant articles posted by Catholics about Mary and the conversations that ensue. My problem with the Catholic obsession with Mary is that it is like clutter taking up your time and thoughts that should be reserved for God.

Mary is often a major obstacle in any faith discussion. Suffice it to say that Mary is the Mother of God. The relationship between mother and son is very strong. Mary leads all men to her Son. An excellent example of this is the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe. This appearance was very important to the history of our continent. You see, the Aztec Indians and the Spaniards were on the brink of war. The Aztec Indians' culture and religion were very different from the Spaniards. They worshipped gods, to whom they would offer human sacrifices, often killing 50,000 people a year. The Spaniards, who were Catholic, were naturally disgusted by this. But they were cruel to the Aztecs too, treating them like animals and sometimes killing them for no reason. If a war had occurred, it would have been very brutal and the Spaniards and Christianity would have been totally wiped out.

Mary's appearance changed everything, however. It helped the Indians to embrace Christianity and it helped the Spaniards to treat the Indians with respect and as human beings. In the course of seven years, 6,000,000 Indians converted to the Catholic faith. This was the biggest conversion in the history of the Church! Mary's appearance also put an end to the worship of stone gods and the ritual of human sacrifice.

Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask for her intercession. We pray for Mary's help today to bring an end to the human sacrifice of God's children through abortion and to convert non-believers. Our Lady of Guadalupe is also called the Patroness of the Unborn.

There is no scriptural bases or need for the Catholic Church as it is today. Especially the claim, Christ instituted it, as in the article at the head of this thread which prompted our discussion.

The Scriptural basis for the Catholic faith is this: Jesus said, Jn 10:11 “I am the good shepherd.” He promised His apostles continuing guidance,Jn 16:12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth….” The Good Shepherd established His vicar on earth by directing Peter, Jn 21:15 “Feed My lambs … Tend My sheep … Feed My sheep,” and promised, Lk 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me.” Jesus gave His apostles a worldwide mission, hence successors, with the command: Mt 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…” He guaranteed the teaching of the apostles and their successors, Mt 28:20 “I am with you always.” The apostles’ authority to appoint successors, and the successors’ to appoint other successors, is clear from Paul’s letter to Titus, 1:5 “This is why I left you in Crete, that you might … appoint elders in every town as I directed you … For a bishop, as God’s steward, must … hold firm to the sure word as taught.” The apostles enrolled Matthias Acts 1:25 to replace Judas and appointed deacons Acts 6:6 as assistants. The descended Holy Spirit immediately highlighted the Church’s worldwide mission; Peter and the other apostles spoke in their own language to the devout Jews of Jerusalem who had come from every nation under heaven, yet each Jew heard in his own native language. Acts 2:7 “And they were amazed and wondered, saying, ’Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language’”

According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).