Posted on 02/16/2010 6:58:55 PM PST by reaganaut
This is a thread for the live streaming of Heart of the Matter an outreach to the LDS. A link with the archive will be posted when it is up.
But poorly grounded.
The great short coming of the church is FAILURE to teach new Christians what they are getting into.
When I was a Sunday School teacher / Small Group Leader; I was appalled at the ignorance of those who had been in church for YEARS!
So many just KNOW that such and such is in the Bible (Or it isn’t) because they HEARD it somewhere.
(Try getting folks to tell you how St. Peter is going to judge how they get through the Pearly Gates... ;^)
Glenn Beck in the baker’s cap....
An image to start my day off with laughter!
ttt
“I’ve been awestruck by the anger(?) of some. I mean it’s not that I expected them to be overjoyed or anything, but there was little, if any attempt to convince me from a theological point of view that I was making a “mistake” in leaving mormonism.”
SZ, no one ever likes it when you invalidate their experience. Since their experience is the basis for their involvement in mormonism - and you know mormonism isn’t about propositional truth - the more they hate it. To them it isn’t “anti-mormonism” (meaning the teachings). It is “anti-mormon” because it is about them, their experience, their feelings.
“I don’t know how one truthfully reconciles the contrast in what they’re taught to do, taught to believe and then their actions towards a member who is leaving the fold.”
But again, it isn’t about the beliefs (factually speaking). They can overlook all facts: Biblical, geographical, geology, biological, etc. and swallow all of mormonism because they had a feeling or experience.
In the same vein, when you renounce mormonism, you are renouncing THEIR feelings and experiences. That is all that matters.
You done right.
ampu
(Try getting folks to tell you how St. Peter is going to judge how they get through the Pearly Gates... ;^)
__________________________________________
He’s not...
First ya gotta get passed Joey Smith ...
Once Joey Smith punches yer passpoort then St Peter and Jesus show ya to yer seat...
Second President Brigham Young once remarked,
“I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you”
(Journal of Discourses 4:298, March 29, 1857).
On October 9, 1859, Young said,
“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”
(Journal of Discourses 7:289).
“He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be.”
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
“You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god...”
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
...to get by Joseph Smith...
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
“If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph”
—Brigham Young
—JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
The little green pinny
:)
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
--------- And yet ldsers wonder why we say - BLASPHEMY!
I think I’ve seen a quote from one of the mormon leaders mentioning Smith then Peter and Jesus...
Sounds like BY but it might have been Bruse McConkie or one of the other ignoramouses...
I am not offended by opposition viewpoint in the slightest.
We do have mutually exclusive Doctrinal differences.
You believe God and Jesus are still physical and man. If that is so, how can God claim omnipotence and take up home in every mans heart? The logic in a physical creator doesn’t make sense.
Besides you guys are weird. You claim to be the only ones and provide no proof from God of his sympathetic protection for you alone.
You claim the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people. I have racked my brains on the one but God makes clear there will always be a Jewish identity and nation. Although they may be scattered at times, they alone have the promise of God’s protection and ordination that a Jewish Quorum will alway be in the land of Judah. Which it looks like he kept his promise.
Yet, you want to co-opt their coveted status as God’s chosen people and now mysteriously, by your belief alone, The Church of Christ, Latter Day Saints are suddenly God’s chosen people. How did that happen and when? Why would God break his promise to the Jews?
You compound your shallow profundity by openly saying that we must pass Joseph Smith and meet with his approval of being worthy and well qualified.
Somehow, it has escaped you that two other guys already have the job.
So no offense taken except for complete alteration of reality to suit your personal agenda and your outright ignorance of what your religion has on their website and promulgate further in each and every one of your student manuals.
How can you deny or ignore those as provable and measurable facts?
Well, because you can and want to see the world through a less than objective lens.
Bingo!
Book of Remembrance - 3 Nephi 24:16
Prophecies of Zenos - 1 Nephi 19:10: Jacob 5:1
Prophecies of Zenock - 1 Nephi 19:10
Prophecies of Neum - 1 Nephi 19:10
Missing Plates from Laban - 1Nephi 3:3-4
Lost Teachings of Benjamin - Mosiah 1:8
Lost Word of Amulek - Alma 9:34
Lost Words of Alma - Alma 13:31
Lost Teachings of Alma - Alma 8:1
Lost Teachings of Helaman - Helaman 5:13
but then that ASSUMES the bom to be factual - which it isn't and therefore ANY missing books are as bogus as the bom already is. But that doesn't stop the mormon double standard - does it.
Once it is reveled to some one that the Emperor indeed has no Clothes, it does little good to try and sure them that he is not really naked...
Then all you can do is try and make the one who now knows the truth look the fool...
Interviewing Instructions
Exercise great care when interviewing applicants for recommends to enter a temple. Make it clear that you represent the Lord in determining worthiness to enter his holy house. No unworthy applicant should receive a recommend. Be certain that each applicant is worthy as a result of living up to Church standards and principles. Acceptable answers to the recommend interview questions ordinarily will establish worthiness to receive a recommend. Do not assume that worthiness to enter the temple at one time is reason for a casual interview later. Discuss the interview questions with each applicant, and keep each interview private.
Require an applicant who is not living up to Church standards and principles to demonstrate true repentence before receiving a recommend to enter a temple.
The only way that happens in your religion is using your scorecard
When interviewing an applicant for a recommend, do not inquire into personal, intimate matters about marital relations between a husband and his wife.
Generally, do not deviate from the recommend interview questions. If, during an interview, an applicant asks about the propriety of specific conduct, do not pursue the matter. Merely suggest that if the applicant has enough anxiety about the propriety of the conduct to ask about it, the best course would be to discontinue it. If you are sensitive and wise, you usually can prevent those being interviewed from asking such explicit questions.
That is just so laughable. You are the only who determines what questions will be and a persons Aprehension alone is enough to terminate a recommend? A question about the appropriateness and nature of question removes them the possibity of worshiping with God's flock? That is just so rich and quite the damning judgement on someone investigating whether or not they will want to attend your services, much less worship in your doctrine.
Interview Questions for Recommends to Enter a Temple
1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel? Answer: Well yes I believe in God, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, but I can't get in if I don't wholesale accept the "Restored Gospel" through Joseph Smith? FAIL. No Enter
2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Answer: Uhm, what are priesthood keys? Can you tell more about them? They must be very special. What powers are given through these keys? Can I make a duplicate for myself? FAIL. No Enter
3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church? Answer: Authorities of What? FAIL. No Enter
4. Do you live the law of chastity? Answer: Do you? And don't lie, the answer is for posterity. FAIL. No Enter
5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? Answer: How would I know? What are the rules? FAIL. No Enter.
6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual? Answer: Well I am a Christian and don't accept your cat calls of my being in a state of apostacy and to compound matters, I am apparently a "Whore of Babylon" but, who am I to judge? FAIL. No Enter.
7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel? Answer. Uhm, no. I haven't joined your exclusive club yet. FAIL. No Enter
8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? Answer: Yes, on the level and by the square but you knew that.
9. Are you a full-tithe payer? Answer: I am little short this month. FAIL. No Enter
10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? Answer: What? FAIL. No Enter
11. Have you ever been divorced or are you now separated from your spouse under order of a civil court? If yes, (a) - Are you current in your support payments and other financial obligations for family members, as specified by court order or in other written, binding commitments? (b) Were there any circumstances of transgression in connection with your divorce or separation that have not been previously resolved with your bishop? Answer: Never been married and have no intention of ever entering into that arrangement. I am still okay? FAIL. No Enter
12. If you have received your temple endowment -- (a) Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple? (b) Do you wear the authorized garments both day and night? Answer: Aren't your underwear the same as Masons and their death garments? Besides, I prefer the ones I get from Target. More comfortable. FAIL No Enter
13. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not? Answer: Why would I take up my personal failures with a man and seek his approval. Besides, isn't it rather gauche to air my dirty laundry? If I had to share such personal faiure, would allow me the dignity of a wall and veil, like the Catholics, so I can at least feel some anonymity? I shave my mistakes everyday in the mirror and ask God for forgiveness and to show me a better way. FAIL. No Enter
14. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances? Answer: Worthy is such a subjective adjective. I wouldn't know if I am worthy or well qualified. You are the one asking the questions and the sole arbiter. FAIL. No Enter
In each interview, emphasize to the applicant the need to safeguard the recommend. It must never be loaned and should be reported immediately to the issuer if lost or stolen. (See "Lost, Stolen, or Revoked Recommends" on the preceding page.)
OLD Questions 11 & 12 (replaced by 11a & 11b)
11. Have you ever had a divorce that has not been cleared by appropriate priesthood authorities, where required?
12. If you have ever been divorced or separated, are you presently fulfilling your obligations for the support and maintenance of your family?
I have a very diverse Christan life. I was raised Disciples of Christ then Methodist. I converted to Orthodox in my early adulthood due to desire and marriage. I later divorced and remarried and my wife and I attend a Methodist church we like since Orthodoxy was a bit much for a Southern Baptist small town country girl (despite getting her advanced degrees in California)
So while we normally attend our Methodist Church, I, from time to time, attend Orthodox services. We also still go to her little Baptist Church back home. I also attend, on occasion, a little Anglican Church where an African Minister I love to here preach (and is a good friend of mine) is the minister.
I am welcome at all, hugged by all my friends and others at all and here is the best part, I feel both personally and spiritually at home in all.
That concept is beyond the training and understanding of the LDS rank and file and verboten by their leadership.
I gotta remember this.
Which BIBLE verse did the Founder and early leaders of MORMONism Ignore?
How does one DO that??
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