Posted on 02/12/2010 8:29:49 AM PST by colorcountry
I asked for it.
My column last week was met with an overwhelming response from active Latter-day Saints, objective religious observers and fervent anti-Mormons. It made its way onto several message boards and blogs, sparking discussions that ran the gamut from the insightful and constructive to the snarky and fruitless.
All in all, the column -- in which I encouraged Mormon readers to genuinely ask aggressors why they so dislike the church and its members -- garnered hundreds of replies. There was no way I could have responded to every message.
Still, many of their responses were insightful and, I believe, important for Latter-day Saints to hear. I struggled with whether I should post them in my column because, after all, I am an active, believing Mormon writing for other active, believing Mormons. But ultimately I determined I would be remiss if I asked a question in this column without providing any of the answers.
I should say now that I definitely do not agree with or accept every assertion made in the following comments. But I do believe they are opinions that are held by many sincere, reasonable people, and that means we should take notice
The purpose of sharing these comments is not to discourage the faith of active Latter-day Saints. Rather, it is intended to be an education to those of us who hope to change others' opinions and perceptions of our church.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
"If you want respect, respect others. Respect my time and understand that the intrusion of missionaries, pushy or otherwise, is an encroachment on my time. I don't appreciate having missionaries trying to strike up a conversation on the street that inevitably leads to debate. I have my beliefs ... among which is that the Mormon Church is false. I don't want to talk about it in a conversation that ends up in a mental battle over who got in the final word and who happens to be right. If I say 'no' I mean it. Don't try striking up the conversation from a different angle. Simply say 'OK,' say something nice like, 'Have a nice day,' smile and go about your business."
JUDGE NOT THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED
"So, about a year ago, I decided to read the Book of Mormon one more time, and pray about it, just like an investigator would. ...
"What do I hate? When I share that story with a member (usually someone I trust) and they tell me that God didn't answer my prayers after years of questioning and studying and, yeah, pleading for guidance because 1) I wasn't sincere enough, 2) I wasn't worthy enough, 3) I wasn't listening hard enough, or 4) I'm a liar.
"You see, none of these faithful members know my heart, yet despite a 'divine' commandment to 'judge not,' or to 'judge not unrighteous judgments' that's exactly what they do."
THREATENING THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM
"As a non-member, I can offer you a few thoughts concerning this subject. For starters 'they' are taught to hate you. Mormons do not fit the 'traditional' definition of Christianity as understood by several of the predominant denominations. As a youth I was raised Roman Catholic. It was taught at that time (mid- to late '50s) that if you were not Catholic you were a follower of the devil and would automatically be condemned to hell. ...
"One thing the so-called traditional faiths share is a belief in the New Testament of the Bible as their sole source of religious inspiration. They also share a common resentment of anyone who challenges that belief system.
"Now arriving is the Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, newcomers to the religious community with a new book of spiritual inspiration that is outside of the traditionally accepted realm of truths. It most certainly does not 'fit in' with long-accepted dogma. With your aggressive pursuit of growth and well-funded expansion 'they' feel threatened.
"Unfortunately, as with any new challenge to one's beliefs, if it doesn't reinforce the belief system of the established traditional congregation, they fear it.
"As to 'Why do they hate us?' I can only suggest that you haven't convinced 'them' of the truth of your message. But take comfort in the fact that you are not alone. 'They' challenge each other as vigorously as they challenge you for the right to claim exclusive rights to understanding our creation and our place in a spiritual kingdom."
(Excerpted)
"So, about a year ago, I decided to read the Book of Mormon one more time, and pray about it, just like an investigator would. ...
"What do I hate? When I share that story with a member (usually someone I trust) and they tell me that God didn't answer my prayers after years of questioning and studying and, yeah, pleading for guidance because 1) I wasn't sincere enough, 2) I wasn't worthy enough, 3) I wasn't listening hard enough, or 4) I'm a liar.
This is one of the things I dislike about Mormonism. I was born into a multi-generational Mormon family. I tried most of my life to believe it tenets - just could not do it. I prayed, and prayed, and prayed. Studied, fasted, attended endless meetings and testimonials, but could never gain the treasured "testimony" of Mormonism. All I could see in it was lies and deceptions.
The Mormons I know now suggest that I didn't try hard enough, wasn't "worthy," or I'm a liar. This has set me on a quest to tell my story of my genuine conversion to Christ at age 45.
Ping
Would any of you care to comment?
I have found that when someone doesn’t convert, or change their beliefs, it always seems to be because they just didn’t try hard enough.
FWIW, I passed up an opportunity to join the Mormons once even though there was a lot I liked about them because I thought they were too expensive (tithing) and I was unwilling to give up my booze. But at least I'm honest enough to admit it and move on with my life. And not pretend one of the most conservative, pro-American demographics in America is more dangerous than thug socialism, Islamic terrorism, facist Marxism or one of the real threats facing us.
The faith of God is simple: Christ.
I’m encouraged by your story, colorcountry.
I hate Mormon doctrine — it’s one clever man’s perversion of the faith Christ professed. And I bristle with Mormons who defend Joseph Smith’s fictions, arrogantly insisting that the faith Christ established had become corrupted. But everyday Mormons — I just feel heartbroken for them, and pray that they would investigate the foundations of their faith as you have, and come to a pure faith in Christ.
yes, that is a stock reply...I have an adopted mormon family...they have never talked religion to me...wonder why?
Huh? Who is saying that Mormons are more dangerous than Islamic terrorists?
Also, I may have missed it, but where specifically has colorcountry expressed “hatred” for Mormons in general (as opposed to hating Mormon doctrine and the activities of Mormon apologists/leaders)?
"Americans must not be afraid of the change President Obama will bring". "Whites don't like Jesse Jackson because they fear blacks". "Straight people hate gays because they fear them".
Fits right in, doesn't it? If you object to something, it's automatically because of an irrational fear. It can't possibly be a thoughtful rejection.
You’re ill-informed post regarding CC speaks volumes of you though.
But I won’t stoop to calling you a “liar”.
Attack the messenger, not the message.
Marginalize the messenger by calling them a “hater”, put them on the defensive, get them off the topic and into the mode of having to defend themselves instead of being able to get their message out.
Just a curiosity can you show me one post that says “we hate mormons”. Just one.
That is interesting. In all the years I have been to church and there are many, I have never once even heard mormons mentioned. Where is this hatred taught? All I have heard at church is the Love of God and how He wants none to parish.
The play book.
Summarized Mormon apologetic strategies as follows:
• Deny - until the facts overwhelm.
• Attack - the sources, the critic, anything to change the subject of
discussion.
• Use the “Personal Defence” – A clever variation on “Attack” which
shifts the focus to the hard-done-by apologist and away from the
substance of the debate. The apologist might all but make up an
attack against himself, for example, and use attack language toward
himself, as if the critic had said it, and then shift into a Personal
Defence.
• Accept and Reject - essentially the “so what” defence, regardless of
the merit of the evidence rejected.
• Assert Victory - this includes “victory” over the factual information that
was never reasonably refuted.
• Refuse Re-engagement - once victory is declared, continued debate
can be declared irrelevant.
• Emphasize Feelings – bear testimony based on feelings. This shifts the
argument out of the objective into the subjective. Facts become
relative to perspective. There can be no rational argument on this
basis.
This one statement alone is proof enough to me that they are spinning into the tinfoil hat conspiracy mode. "Don't trust any evangelical or non-mormon because they've all been taught to hate you"???WTH!!??.
I'm sorry, what a steaming load of excrement. If that were the case, my wife (mormon) and me wouldn't be getting ready to celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary. I wouldn't have even married her because I'm supposed to have been taught to "hate mormons".
Read my tagline, this is starting to become the norm with the lds. When you can't defend the indefensible attack the messenger, not the message.
Have you noticed that there are different posters posting similar types of posts on the various threads?
I’m getting the impression that the apologists are trying to use the tactics described to stop the posting of such material in the RF by making those of us who disagree with mormonism get off topic and get bogged down in defensive tactics.
Just some random thoughts and observations.
We have far more important things to deal with, like Muslims attacking us, the failure of our government at the hands of socialist, the Chinese and illegal immigrants. We need to get each one of those under control, one at a time because we can't do more than one thing at a time.
The fact that we saved ourselves and our allies from these earthly threats is far more important then letting those same allies, friends all, waltz blithely through the gates of hell when they slip this mortal coil by natural causes instead of the Muslims we saved them from.
Or perhaps some multitasking is in order...
Summarized Mormon apologetic strategies as follows:
• Deny - until the facts overwhelm.
• Attack - the sources, the critic, anything to change the subject of
discussion.
• Use the “Personal Defense” – A clever variation on “Attack” which
shifts the focus to the hard-done-by apologist and away from the
substance of the debate. The apologist might all but make up an
attack against himself, for example, and use attack language toward
himself, as if the critic had said it, and then shift into a Personal
Defense.
• Accept and Reject - essentially the “so what” defense, regardless of
the merit of the evidence rejected.
• Assert Victory - this includes “victory” over the factual information that
was never reasonably refuted.
• Refuse Re-engagement - once victory is declared, continued debate
can be declared irrelevant.
• Emphasize Feelings – bear testimony based on feelings. This shifts the
argument out of the objective into the subjective. Facts become
relative to perspective. There can be no rational argument on this
basis.
Here are some excerpts from my posting history, that you call me a liar for proclaiming my conversion to Christ is very telling:
To: SZonian; teppe
I am another apostate Mormon and I sympathize with you and the chore that you are faced with in teaching your family about the true nature of God.
I mourn for my family....the family of my birth, who were taught for generations that they too would become gods, that they were blessed to be born into the mormon cult because they were very valiant in the pre-existence when we dwelled with a “god” who was once a man, but by obedience finally became our father-god and sent our brother-god Jesus Christ to die so that universal eternal life would be given to all, good or bad, believers or non-believers. My family and ancestors believed that they were part of the straight and narrow followers of Joseph Smith who could mate with many wives, and have many dozens of children who would expand their empire-kingdom in the life to come.
Now it is my chore, to teach my family, the meaning of words like; God, the Son, Savior, Grace, Eternal Life, Kingdom. Those very words were hijacked and given new meaning by the cult that has enslaved my family since 1838. Yes, I truly hate a cult that hijacks the very gift that Christ died to give us. I love the Mormon people enough to reach out to them in love and show them the deceptions of their “prophets,” and how they are enslaved to a non-christian sect. I pray that they will come to Christ, but in reality, on He knows. He has asked me to spread the Gospel, the Good News of salvation and eternal life, right now, in Him.
25 posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:58:20 AM by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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Friday, January 22, 2010 7:38:20 PM · 20 of 111
colorcountry to Saundra Duffy
Saundra,
I believe you gave your life to Christ many years ago. I hope you always remember that he died to save you, to show His complete love for you, and that you can add nothing to His gift. There is nothing higher than His gift to you.
I pray that you remember the omnipotent God, who is the all, the one and only, who has no equal in all the universe, and know that He created you.
I pray that you always remember and realize that human effort at making themselves good, is puny and self-absorbed, especially when it gives them pride and self-importance and places themselves as savior of themselves.
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Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:10:39 AM · 9 of 126
colorcountry to delacoert
I was a sixth generation, young, working mother of five, married to an abusive husband withing the LDS framework.
I never could do enough to feel “worthy.” I often had thoughts of despair and reasoned that my life was miserable because I wasn’t doing enough or being enough. I wasn’t the perfect wife, mother, daughter, employee. I only baked bread twice a week, could never find enough time to attend the Temple or properly prepare my primary lessons for Sunday. My five children were never clean enough, nor well-behaved enough. My husband was never satisfied and he took it out on me. I guess he too was having feelings of abject failure to the Mormon god who demands perfection.
When I was finally on the verge of suicide, Christ found me. He reached down into the depths of my despair and rescued me - a fallible sinner.
I pray this billboard can touch the lives of those other poor women who “can’t be perfect” enough. He offers solace that Prozac cannot touch.
Of course I do see every removed thread as a victory. If the LDS was winning the argument in the thread they would want it to remain for all to see.
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