Posted on 12/28/2009 11:26:45 AM PST by urroner
For the sake of a discussion, let's assume that I am a brand new neighbor of yours. We have only met each other in passing. You play the part of the Christian and I will play the part of the agnostic. (BTW, none of the below is true about me. Upfront, I am Mormon, but I have tried to get into this discussion on this forum for some time, but haven't been able to do so.)
(I also realize that there are some of you who are more than eager to post anti-Mormon material on this thread and I request that you don't do so. I don't even want Mormonism mentioned in this thread beyond this point.)
Let's assume that I'm out trimming the hedges between your house and mine and that you are working in a garden close to the hedges.
My wife and three kids, ages 3, 8, and 13, are all out with me. My wife keeps telling me I need to paint the house before it gets colder, my younger children are throwing little rocks at me to get my attention and laughing and giggling, and the oldest is pestering me about buying her a cellphone and about the promise I made a year ago about letting her pierce her ears for earrings.
In a calm moment, my wife and I get into a neighborly chat, well would be my wife, I'm a science/math teacher at the local community college and it's very hard for me to just sit down and chitchat and you tell us you are Christian.
My wife tells you she is a Christian also, but doesn't go to any denomination and hasn't been to church in several years, since marrying me, but that I am always peppering her with questions that she doesn't know the answers to. She says that one of the reasons she has stopped going to church is because she likes to spend Sundays with me since we don't get a lot of lone time together. I spend a lot of time helping students at the college and when I'm home, I have to spend a lot of time with the kids. We do have a date night every week, but that's just not enough.
She also says that she is also tired of seeing so much hypocrisy among the church members and the preacher is always asking for money, that she had decided to stop going. She says that her preacher, when she was little, told her she was saved as did her parents, so her salvation was guaranteed.
You see me roll my eyes when my wife says that.
I tell you that I really don't go to any denomination, but I have read the Bible, the Koran, the Tao Te Ching, the Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, some of the writings of Marx, and some New Age books. I tell you that I don't know what the right way is or even if there is a right way?
I tell you that I tend toward Uniterianism, but Buddhism has some attraction to me also, but it's a little too esoteric for me. I tell you that I also have some problems with life after death, reincarnation, or any supernatural miracles.
I tell you my parents were Catholics before they died, but they died when I was very young and I have been to church only a couple of times since their funeral, but the people who adopted me were strong agnostics and never directed me to follow any particular path. I'm thinking about going back to the RCC, but haven't made any decision yet.
You realize that I am fairly knowledgeable of the Bible when it comes to knowing where what is, but you realize that I don't interpret them at all as you do. In fact, I have a very shallow understanding of them. I think the Bible is good literature and can help a person do a lot of good in this life, but I don't know anything about being saved and what that means.
I ask you what you believe and how I can find the happiness and joy you have in your life.
What are you going to say or do?
Since Urroner brought up Mormonism, it is fair game.
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it is whgether or not he brought it up...
This is the Religion Forum...
Not a place for wimps...
One more reply from me.
First, develop a personal relationship with God, through Christ, then find a Church - or not. The point is in Christian fellowship.
Wow. Thank you for sharing that wonderful testimony, CC.
Then why not just ask that question?
Trying not be be onerous, but in my agnostic role:
How can I know if He’s my Father? Why would a good father hide himself totally from his children, create them in a fallen state, and then punish them for being fallen?
Help me find the Truth.
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Jesus said to urroner, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man or woman comes to the Father except by me” John 14:6
I made bread from scratch two to three times a week. I didn't swear, watch “R” rated movies, or drink coffee, tea or coca cola. I attended three meetings on Sunday (one of them I had to teach) and went Relief Society teaching two days a month. I exercised to keep my weight below 125 lbs, and kept myself immaculately groomed for my husband, who left me for another woman anyway.
I could never find peace or perfection. My life was just a constant struggle where I wondered why God hated me so much - and the answer from my Mormonism was to just try harder!
“I ask you what you believe and how I can find the happiness and joy you have in your life”
I would tell you that the happiness and joy that I have in my life doesn’t come from a church or a religion but from the personal,intimate relationship I have with GOD through faith in the completed work of Christ. I would say once I started reading the Bible to learn about and draw closer to God is when the truth of His love, His grace, His mercy and His interest and love for me began to be revealed and that revelation has brought complete happiness and joy into my life as well as a sense of fullness and contentment that I always hungered for but never believed could be obtained.
God Himself* died on the cross. Accept that and be saved.
Play Mormon games and you will be punished, now is the hour. Repent and believe.
*See the Apostles Creed.
Surely you jest...
Would be easier to find the ruins of Nephi...
MissDairyGoodnessVT said:
if you can’t make up your mind about what church to pick then you don’t have a religion/church problem you have another kind of problem & with that problem I’d recommend
a shrink. Pick out a shrink you’ll feel better
Me as an agnostic:
I want to pick the correct religion/church so I can have the most happiness. I have been told over and over again if I pick the wrong one, then I’m bound for Hell. If there is a Hell, then I really don’t want to go there. I don’t see it as a mental problem.
I’ve known people who have gone church-hopping for years and never settled down on just one.
If you mean to just pick one religion/church because any one is just as good as any other, well, that would catch me very off-guard coming from a Christian?
How can I know if He’s my Father?
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First off...Jesus is God...always has been ...always will be...
The Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Son, (the Word, Jesus) anjd God the Holy Ghost...1 John 5:7
without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. James 1:5, 6
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 6:31, 32
But Jesus was speaking of Christianity...
And not that lie of Joey Smith’s called mormonism...
Why would a good father hide himself totally from his children, create them in a fallen state, and then punish them for being fallen?
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THat woulkod be the mormon gods...
The Judeo-Christian God is not like that...
See my previous post but change 40+ to 112+.
No one would say don’t ask questions. That is how you validate a hypothesis or faith to arrive at truth.
The point is in Christian fellowship.
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Actually the point is salvation due to Jesus shedding His life giving blood on the cross...
and dying in our place to pay the death penalty for our sins...
and a relationship with Jesus...
First of all, while claiming to take an “agnostic” position, you are using common LDS refutations of Christian doctrine. More than a little disingenuous.
Secondly, you are starting from a false premise, one that is very common in Mormonism, that anyone can be “argued” or “reasoned” into the Kingdom of God. They cannot.
The Holy Spirit is the one that does the converting, not man.
Let me tell you about an actual agnostic.
My best friend grew up in a very atheist household. She had no use for God and even less use for Christianity. She wasn’t a “seeker” in any way.
She knew I was a Christian and joked that she “didn’t hold it against me”. She would occasionally ask a question for sport, and only to knock down any answer.
After a few years, she started to move a little toward the “agnostic” position. Nevertheless, she stated that IF there was a God, she still didn’t want anything to do with Him.
A few years after that, she was up visiting us. I invited her to church out of politeness, fully expecting her to decline the invitation. She later told me that she accepted only to be polite and in the hopes of being able to find more “ammo” against Christians.
To all of our surprise, though, God had other ideas. During the service my friend had a VERY intense conversion experience. She said that “all of a sudden everything made sense, everything fell into place”, she calls it “getting Chuck Norris’d” because it was like a roundhouse kick to the head and a back kick to the heart.
At the end of the service, she answered the altar call, and in tears gave her life to the Lord. She has never looked back.
Her life has changed in so many wonderful ways and it had nothing to do with “debate”.
That is the power of the Holy Spirit, not of man.
First of all, you are now inserting your Mormon belief into your make-believe agnosticism. No one on this thread or even on the religion forum claims that a certain denomination will save you from hell. Christ will save you from hell. The form of worship (denomination) doesn't do a thing for you, except help you worship.
Mormons believe that only within Mormonism will you find exaltation. This isn't how Christianity is. Christians are Christians whether they go to a building that says Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Evangelical Free, or Mennonite. A Christian is someone who has faith in the saving nature of the atonement, period. It doesn't really matter if you are lead in song by a rock band or an A Capella choir, or if you pray in olde english, or latin. You can't even play a good agnostic on this thread - perhaps it is time to drop the charade.
Knowing that you are a Mormon I misunderstood your question and thought you had a construct around your faith.
Did not realize it was a generalization.
Now that we are here, I would simply be who I am. Jesus is gentleman and knocks at the door. Literally, at the door of your heart.
I don’t evangilize anyone but have been asked many time in my life why I am so happy, to which I share the why and sometimes get back more “why’s” and “how’s”.
That is my approach. I pass no judgment on others, as I am wholly unqualified and will never be.
I am just me and when others want to know I cheerfully share and sometimes guide or teach.
Be yourself and your existence is the witness to another way of life spiritually, mentally and emotionally.
Then why not just ask that question?
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Because he wants to set up a straw man to knock it down. SOP and he thinks we can’t see through it.
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