Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock
I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.
Answer:
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.
Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."
None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?
Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).
In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?
What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)
My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.
For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.
Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.
For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.
Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.
We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.
Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.
I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.
I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.
As a Baptist where I find all this so wrong is none of it is in Scripture. If your church wants to go outside Scripture it's your choice, but basing doctrines/dogma's on non Scriptural sources is something I would never want to answer for.
I think it may be the arrogance that many Roman Catholics express about their church. That tends to get under the skin of other Christians, who feel like you’re looking down on us as “separated brethren,” saying that “there is no salvation outside the church.”
Here are some quotes that reinforce this arrogance that some Roman Catholics have toward other Christians:
“To be Christian one must be Roman. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth” (Pope Pius XII).
“So long as the member was on the body, it lived; separated, it lost its life. Thus the man, so long as he lives on the body of the [Catholic] Church, he is a Christian; separated from her, he becomes a heretic” (Pope Leo XIII).
“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition. Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress” (Pope Leo XIII).
“He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ” (Pope Pius IX).
You ask why many Christians sometimes bristle when in dialog with Roman Catholics? It’s because many Roman Catholics see us as non-Christian heretics, even though Christ is our Lord.
FWIW, I’m CC’ing Petronski so he can see the first quote above, in which a Pope said, “To be Christian one must be Roman.”
On any threads, really. I think people are getting a bit lazy, and find it much easier to be uncivil. ON another thread someone asked me to meet them at a store so they could beat the crap out of me or something like that.
I have never personally condemned anybody for not being in my Church. I believe that any God that is merciful enough to sacrifice his only son for our sakes, will take all things into account when determining our souls fate in the afterlife. It is simply not for me to say.
I wish that all Catholics were not painted with a broad brush simply because some of you have problems with our Pope's.
As for arrogance, there is plenty of it coming from the Protestants on this thread. Every church feels that it is the one true Church. The Protestants think that they are right, and the Catholics think that they are right. The Jewish people think that we are all crazy and the Muslims basically hate everybody. That's just the way of the world. When the world finally comes to a close(and with the way things are looking that will probably be soon) we will find out who is right.
So until than, everybody needs to chill out!
It must be tough to overcome the language barrier (or do you speak Italian?).
You speak of "come home to Rome" and publish books like "The Path to Rome" and "Home Sweet Rome," and then claim that there's nothing Roman about your church.
Oh I do, eh?
When did I claim there's nothing Roman about the Catholic Church?
Why not embrace the truth that your church finds its home in Rome...?
Because it's home is in Vatican City.
And what does the Catholic Church call herself?
Is that some way of yours to try to say Catholics are "nothing?"
I mean, it wouldn't surprise me, given your posting history.
To physically threaten you was pathetic and juvenile.
I love having discussions with people. I just don't like it when people come at you swinging for no reason. Especially when you have been civil to them.
Prissier than thou, Quix?
That IS an incredible claim.
If you want to know Catholic teaching, you will find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Understandable.
But by that reasoning, one can argue that Protestants who believe that the distinctive differences between Catholics and Protestants present barriers preventing Catholics from coming to Christ are not arrogant because they also have a deep faith that they are speaking the truth and are trying to save souls. That door swings both ways and if you are going to argue that it is okay for Catholics to make such statements, it follows necessarily from that logic that it ought to be okay for Protestants to make such comments as well without being accused of "arrogance."
There are many on both sides who sincerely believe that they have a monopoly on Truth. The arrogance comes in when one side expects the other to accept the framework of debate solely within its own terms and definitions. Both sides do it way too much for anything fruitful to ever proceed from these debates.
On the other hand, he may well be able to beat me up :-)
That has long been my opinion, that people are much less civil when talking with their computer.
But I fear that years of learning how to be rude, crass, and juvenile has left a good number of our population unable to act in a civilized manner even in public.
I see more and more people willing to be rude right to people’s faces. Nobody wants to even TRY to understand the other person’s point of view. It used to be that understanding was considered a good conservative value, but now if you suggest you are trying to “understand” what the other side is doing, you are an appeaser or worse, “pragmatic” (which is now a dirty word).
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
It is also false.
The fellows at Trent tell you otherwise...They want you to think that 'they' have some sort of controlling authority over your eternal salvation...
You're not describing the Catholic Church.
INDEED.
THX.
Sprechen Sie Englisch?
The Catholic Church does not ascribe divinity to Mary. However, much of what the Church tells us about the Mother of God is often misunderstood--or deliberately twisted--by non-Catholics into that which it is not: worship.
COMMON DECLARATION OF POPE BENEDICT XVI AND THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY HIS GRACE ROWAN WILLIAMS
But the Catholic Church, situated in Vatican City, on Vatican hill, across from the seven hills mentioned by St. John in Revelation, IS the universal church founded by Christ himself.
"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.
I don't think that it is arrogant to express ones faith in their own Church. I just cannot stand it when either side of the debate is unwilling to really discuss their belief's without debasing somebody else. Christ would be appalled at some of the things that are said on here by everybody.
I look at it this way, I truly do love Jesus. I know that my Protestant brethren feel the same way. We are simply not going to agree on everything, that is just our nature as people. The one thing that we absolutely must agree on is that we live our lives for Christ and nobody else. Not for money, not for material items, most importantly not for ourselves. But for God's son. I am not saying that my Church's teachings don't matter. I am simply saying that if we were to all truly live for our Lord things would be so much better.
I don't mean to sound preachy. I am just a simple housewife and mother of three. I am no extraordinary person by any means. I just wish that all of us Christains could join together as one to worship Christ and do right by him and be good people. I just feel like the world is falling away lately. It just feels so dark. My heart breaks for everybody. The devil truly does enjoy watching us bicker at each other. I wish that it could stop.
Action and intent. In the opposite of veneration and worship, we have criminal law, which requires actus reus and mens rea for a finding of criminal culpability: the "guilty act" and the "guilty mind."
The same is true on the other end of the spectrum, in matters of veneration or worship: it's not just the act that matters, but the intention of the person committing the act.
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