Posted on 11/30/2009 6:01:03 PM PST by delacoert
I’ll just leave this here…
Before a defense of any kind of religious discrimination, one ought to make all of the necessary disclaimers: of course I oppose government-sponsored discrimination, and I certainly would not support the kind of absurd treatment described by Steven Reinhart in his piece featured below. That being said, there is a legitimate case to be made for judging any candidate for office by his religious convictions.
In late 2007, Mitt Romney made his somewhat-famous speech on religion, where he spoke the following words:
“Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.”
Similarly, Romney has stated: “I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it…my faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.”
If freedom requires religion, if his Mormon faith sustains his life and he will be true to those practices, then I’m at an utter loss as to why we should ignore Romney’s religious beliefs when evaluating his fitness for the White House.
We ask plenty of questions of any Evangelical Christian candidate: what do his beliefs about the nature of God, the nature of the cosmos, and the meaning of man’s life mean for his potential tenure in office? But for whatever reason, these questions are looked at as unnecessarily piercing and prejudiced when asked of a member of a minority faith.
When Sarah Palin gave her fumbling answer about Israel’s settlements, several commentators jumped on her faith, wondering whether she subscribed to the bizarre but potent sect of modern Christianity that believes in the imminence of the End Times. Will anyone ask Mitt Romney about the oddities of the dogma of the Mormon Church? There are plenty of Mormon doctrines that may strike people as a bit odd — and rightly so. It is established in the church that the devout can reach the upper echelons of heaven and eventually become gods themselves, able to create their own universes and govern them as they see fit (all while supervised by the One True God). Why is it that when I bring this up to Romney fans, I am dismissed as a bigot?
As an atheist, I both understand and accept that in a predominantly Christian society, my thoughts on religion are necessarily going to open me up to questions. If I were to ever run for office (don’t count on that, by the way), I would not expect my supporters would try to ward off any questions about my atheism with the victim-card of discrimination. One’s philosophy of religion contributes profoundly to his worldview and thus is a completely valid criterion by which to partially evaluate a candidate’s fitness for office.
I view all religions as equally bizarre and irrational. But mainstream Christianity is often adopted as a cultural guise, meant for purposes of assimilation with the majority. Probe most self-described Christians and you’ll find plenty of deviation from standard dogma. Devotion to Mormonism, which is completely outside of the American mainstream, requires a certain level of commitment. To what extent will Romney’s faith influence his decision-making? I ask that question of devoted Evangelicals and judge them accordingly, and I will do the same of a Mormon. And I am not going to apologize for that.
CAN ANYONE tell us what was wrong with PRESBYTERIANism?
- - - - - —
Well, a Calvinist walks into a bar....
;)
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?
Even if I was sure I had a witness from the Holy Ghost I would hold it closer than anything else. What if you have been sifted by Satan? May God save you from such a strong delusion.
LOL.
There have been some who like to play on words one example is when the late Pres. Hinckley said we believe in a different Jesus.
The LDS understood what he met by that it is that many dismiss or over look what is written in the scriptures.
His meaning was plain. The LDS believe in a “different” Jesus than mainstream Christians. And of course the LDS knew what he meant, they brag about having a “different Jesus”. The LDS brag about having “more light and knowledge”. That they know what Jesus REALLY taught, not what is in the bible, but what is in the LDS ‘additional scripture’.
Although you trying to spin Hinkley’s words in interesting. Don’t you trust the prophet to say what he means? Does he need you, Resty, as an interpreter?
My message is on covenants aka commandments.
A covenant is NOT the same as a commandment. A covenant involves 2 parties, each with responsibilities. A commandment is one party demanding something of the other party without any reciprocity.
God’s covenant with Abraham was two sided. Jesus commandments to us are orders, that we God and one another. BTW, those are the ONLY 2 commandments Jesus gave. Not “temple work”, church attendance, mandatory 10% tithe, Word of Wisdom or anything else the LDS tack on to control it’s members (and it is about control).
Our laws to live by come from the Lord, be they laws for just living and getting along in the earth or a more refine knowledge we need to live in Heaven.
Statements like this are why I consider the LDS to be a modern day Gnostic group. They claim to have “special knowledge” (gnosis) for this life and the next.
Most of your LDS ‘laws’ came from a man, Joseph Smith, not God. And the laws, although CLAIMED to be eternal in nature, have changed drastically over the history of the LDS church. The “knowledge” imparted in the Temple ceremonies have even been changed. My God is a God who does not change, the LDS God on the other hand does. This is in direct violation of scripture:
I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal. 3:6)
In my humble understanding (IMHU) I take literal that when the Lords speak they are not suggestion his word is to guild us in how to prepare to live in heaven.
I never said (nor has anyone else on here) that they were suggestions. They are commandments, however you are wrong that they exist to “guide us how to prepare to live in Heaven”. They are COMMANDS (hence COMMANDments) that we are to follow because HE IS GOD and we love Him. They also serve to show our faith to other men, since God sees the heart but men see our works.
Jesus ONLY GAVE 2 COMMANDMENTS: Love the Lord thy God and love one another. All others (including the 10 commandments) fall under this. The LDS “commandments” however are about how to follow the LDS “church program”. They provide a hamster wheel of works that gives self-satisfaction when followed, but not necessarily joy to God.
Before I converted I had many sayings to excuse my behavior like the Lord knows my heart I did not really mean to be unkind, or it’s just the way I am I can’t help and the Lord knows I mean well etc.
That way I was let off of the hook when the natural man reared its ugly head.
And therein lies your problem. Real Christians, those who abide in Christ, don’t make excuses for their behavior. But neither to they think that they by THEMSELVES can change the “natural man”. Only Christ can change the ‘natural man”, no Church can, esp the LDS. And BTW, the LDS I have known make excuses for their behavior MUCH more often than Christians, either that or the think that they NEVER sin.
Resty, what are you going to say to God, as you sit in Judgement, when He tells you that he didn’t want you to TRY to keep the law, but rather to TRUST the ONLY one who has ever kept the whole law (Jesus)? ~ reaganaut
But when one search the scriptures ( John 5:39; Acts 17:11;Jacob 17:23; Alma 14:1; Alma 17:2) this is not totally accurate
Incorrect again, Resty.
John 5:37-40 -- And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
In context, Jesus is speaking about John the Baptist’s testimony of him and scriptures testimony of Him. Jesus points out to the Jews, that they thought they had “eternal life” because of the Law of Moses. Eternal life is found ONLY in Jesus, not in the works of the Law. They had (and followed) the law, but did not believe in Jesus.
Likewise Acts 17:11:
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Paul is giving excellent advice, some I would hope you follow. He is commending the Bereans that they searched the Scriptures (at this time the Tanach) and compared the teachings to them. That is what all Christians are to do, compare the teachings we have learned with the BIBLE to see if “another gospel” is being taught. That is what I did and how I came to realize that the LDS church is “another gospel”.
I will not bother to analyze the BoM quotes as they have no authority to a Christian, they are either the vain ramblings of a fraud (Joseph Smith) or they are plagiarized from the Bible.
And none of those verses you gave have anything to do with keeping the law vs. trusting the only one who has ever fully obeyed the law (Jesus).
Lucifer main objective of saving everyone was to deny their agency aka sovereignty.
Wow, Resty. Wrong again. If you look at the NEXT verse of Isaiah, it says exactly what Lucifer’s crime was: He wanted to make himself a god, just like the LDS do. That is why he was cast out.
Isaiah 14:12-13
12How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Is it not so when we Love One Another we should not speak ill of another?
So Jesus didn’t love the Pharisees? He called them vipers, sons of Satan, whited sepulchers. Sometimes love is telling people the truth, especially when the truth can save them from Eternal damnation.
1 John 5
1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1. 15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
I never said we didn’t’ need to keep the commandments. But the LDS add a whole lot to the “commandments” that Jesus didn’t give. Jesus gave TWO (2) commandments and “all the law and prophets” are encompassed in them. They DO NOT include temple rituals, tithing (we are actually expected to give more), meeting attendance, or any of the other requirements the LDS tack on.
John 6: 25-29
25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
The “works” the LDS require, are the food that spoils. The only work God requires is believing on the one he has sent”.
Thank you for sharing that SZ.
And I think many ex-lds recongize/remember the anger. To find out your CHURCH, the one thing you should be able to trust more than anything else, has been lying to you is very angering.
Peace, my brother, your family is in my prayers.
Feelings cannot be trusted.
I don’t doubt you had “positive” feelings, even a “burning in the bosom”, I did as well, but now I recognize it was my desire to believe in the BoM.
But we are NEVER told to pray about the Bible, why? Because we must take it on faith and there are external evidences for the Bible, which there are none for the BoM.
And of course it sounded familiar, large portions of the BoM are plagiarized directly out of both the Old and New Testaments, but how could the Nephites use terms that are Greek words that hadn’t even been INVENTED yet?
And of course the LDS church answered your questions. They are very good at that. It does not mean thier answers are correct. A well-versed athiest can answer most if not all of the same questions. The LDS church appeals to the minds and reasoning of men. But Gods ways are not mans ways and sometimes we don’t get answers, we just have to TRUST GOD that He knows what is best and how it all comes together.
The other thing is, Moroni’s promise (Moroni 10) is a circular argument. If you don’t get a feeling that the BoM is true, then YOU are at fault either your faith wasn’t sincere, or you didn’t pray hard enough, or you don’t have enough faith in Christ. So, you make yourself “feel” what you are told you will feel.
Disney’s fairy tales are more believable than Joesph Smiths.
Why should they???
I inquired of them and they invited me to investigate
I remember reading the NT and feel good and reading the Book of Mormon and feeling good and than read what Walter Martin said and felt foreboden.
Anyway I did investigate anything you could think of even stuff before I was baptized.
I don't think any comment is necessary regarding this investigation.
huh? I said it should bother YOU, not them?
If religion, or faith were important to you, particularly the Christian faith, then you would be concerned about the eternal welfare of your LDS family.
But as you said “religion is not important”.
placemarker
“As I stood over the wastepaper basket I was impress
to read the Monroni 10 where it was marked.”
This was your first step of descent into a false religion.
The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. Both cannot be
right. The only way someone can abandon the truth of the
Bible is to abandon objective truth and substitute feelings,
exactly as you describe in your post.
The great news is that wherever anyone is today, Jesus
Christ is ready and able to save. Despite their sin. Despite
the the problems or cults they have gotten tangled within.
He awaits you Resty, while there is time.
ampu
“Except a man or woman be BORN again, they cannot see the Kingdom of God” Jesus, John 3:16
I was cleaning house and going to throw the Book away
_________________________________________________
If you had obeyed the Holy Ghost that day 28 years ago, and just tossed that junk when He told you to, you wouldnt be so miserable now...
God was reaching out to you...
It pays to obey God...
Imagine where you would be in your life if you had read the Christian Bible for the last 28 years ???
I am so thankful for the Book of Mormon and it is another testament to the Holy Bible and bring peace to my soul.
I am so thankful that the Lord chose Joseph Smith as his prophet in these latter days.
I am so thankful for the Holy Bible which has the spirit of the Lord and I am able by the power of the Holy Ghost to discern the Lord and know without a doubt and has enable me to know the Book of Mormon is also of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And more moral and family friendly...
Something you can take the kids to...
God loves you in spite of yourselves and rudeness!:)
“When you wish upon a star...
You’ll not wonder where Kolob are...”
“I am so thankful for the Book of Mormon and it is another testament to the Holy Bible and bring peace to my soul.
“I am so thankful that the Lord chose Joseph Smith as his prophet in these latter days.
“I am so thankful for the Holy Bible which has the spirit of the Lord and I am able by the power of the Holy Ghost to discern the Lord and know without a doubt and has enable me to know the Book of Mormon is also of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Resty, that sounds EXACTLY like the affirmations I’ve heard countless cult members make to themselves as they say them to others. It couldn’t be more cult like.
And yet, while there is time in your life, Jesus waits,
holding open the possibility of salvation for you, apart
from your dead works.
And I pray for you still, my dear resty.
It is, after all, it’s Restornu thuRsday today!
in Him,
ampu
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